stigmata

[hannah333]

 Has the stigmata ever been verified?

[Peter Pedant]

Stigmata - by which I take it you mean the marks left by the nails, which occur in various Roman Catholic divines and mystics

They come in two sorts - the pain without the marks and both the pain and the marks.

The obvious complaint is that the person knowlingly or unconsciously is freshening the marks up and so they would come under the label of dermatitis factitia - and so the implication would be that the Divine is not so holy himself but an impostor

As  with Teresa of Avila (levitation) the Divine finds that the signs get in the way of his/her communication, and does not regard it as proof that he/she is marked out by God. needless to say, the hordes of faithful who mill around hoping for a miracle do.

I was aware as a child that John XXIII - himself almost a saint - had subjected one poor soul to a medical examination, and indded if you google stigmata padre pio and take the fortean times (!!) option, you will read:

But a suspicious Vatican, under the leadership of Pope John XXIII, launched a series of investigations in 1960, including the bugging of his confession box, in an attempt to expose Pio as a fraud. Although there was no denying that the stigmata penetrated his hands, its report claimed that he used nitric acid to induce the wounds, and had assignations with women in his cell. The founder of Rome�s Catholic University Hospital said the monk was mad, a self-mutilating psychopath possessed of the devil who exploited people�s credulity. The so-called �odour of sanctity� accompanying his wounds was no more than eau de cologne applied for an indulgent sting of self-mortification. The Vatican banned him from taking Mass.

So I think the answer to your question is YES

[El D]

In what sense do you mean verified?

Peter, I am curious as to what could possibly be conveyed through these symptoms by an omnipotent being?

[hung6]

The thing that confuses me is that stigmata is generally seen as marks on the palms of the hands. The romans used to put the nails through the wrist as the hands could not support the weight of the body.

If stigmata were real would they not also be on the wrists?

[hannah333]

Sorry I wasnt clearer - by verified I mean.... Has anyone ever had a stigmata which no doctor/scientist/sceptic etc could give any other reason for it happening other than it being the wounds of Christ. Obviously the person would have to have been monitored to check for self infliction.

[Peter Pedant]

Come on babies, miracles which can be scientifically verified arent religious miracles, they are scientific facts.

Considering the predelicition for crucifying, there are a dearth of skeletons dug up who have been crucified - that is of course does not mean I am denying crucifixion used to take place, nonetheless it is clear that nails in the palms of the hand would tear out, and you would have to hammer the nails through the wrist.

AS for scientifically verifying a miracle - a scientist will never verify a miracle - (because you've got the God bit which no scientist will sign up to) all they're gonna say is that this has no scientific explanation

The number of people with the stigmata is currently zero, and in the last fifty years there was probably only padre Pio (soon to be canonised, a little angel has told me) so the study group is necessarily limited.

All I can tell you is that padre pio got a medical - and the choices remain yes it is dermatitis factitia or yes it is the stigma

[THECORBYLOON]

It seems the confusion over the hands and wrists arose from Jesus saying to Thomas (when showing His wounds after the Resurrection) "observe My hands" Anatomists consider the wrists to be part of the hand.

[El D]

I believe the point Peter is making is that stigmata is always shown as occurring in the hands, not the wrists, yet this would have been physically impossible - the conclusions are obvious.

[THECORBYLOON]

El D if yir comment was directed at me, I understood that but I was trying to point out WHY folk often think Jesus' hands were nailed to the Cross.

[Peter Pedant]

Boys and girls, please -

show some Christian charity to each other.

The big drawback about the Turin Shroud, was that the stigmata were shown in the palms which would never have borne weight (I dont want to get into discussion about the sedulum)

By and large I think we said everything there is to say about stigmata, the other readers will just have to make up their minds