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Why the need for the Tories’ to hold its first gay pride event?
38 Answers
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218685/Stephen-Fry-Eddie-Izzard-round-Tories-homophobia-row-partys-new-right-wing-allies-Europe.html
Especially when they and others then start objecting to who else the Tories invited to this event,
In addition, Ben Summerskill, the head of pressure group Stonewall pulled out of the Tory gay event, held in Manchester' Gay Village, in protest at the presence of the two MEPs.
If gays want to get so much involved in politics, then why don't they start their own party?
Especially when they and others then start objecting to who else the Tories invited to this event,
In addition, Ben Summerskill, the head of pressure group Stonewall pulled out of the Tory gay event, held in Manchester' Gay Village, in protest at the presence of the two MEPs.
If gays want to get so much involved in politics, then why don't they start their own party?
Answers
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ahmskunnirt has put up a strong and well fought out response to my question.
Like all minority groups they expected (no demand) to be tolerant towards them, but they don't respond in a similar way I am afraid.
Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them, the same as any other persons, but no they take every opportunity to highlight the fact that they are gay, and as such demand that others grant them special rights.
jackthehat states that "The MEPs raising concerns are from the old Eastern Bloc, where tolerance towards gay people is less than it ought to be. Some have also espoused views that have offended Jews, hence The Board of Deputies of British Jews is also understood to have written to Mr Cameron to protest at the presence of the eastern Europeans in Manchester."
Doesn't he or she also think that Homosexuals offend others, Muslims for example. What would have been said if the British Muslim Council had written to Mr Cameron to protest at the Tory Gay Event in Manchester?
Like all minority groups they expected (no demand) to be tolerant towards them, but they don't respond in a similar way I am afraid.
Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them, the same as any other persons, but no they take every opportunity to highlight the fact that they are gay, and as such demand that others grant them special rights.
jackthehat states that "The MEPs raising concerns are from the old Eastern Bloc, where tolerance towards gay people is less than it ought to be. Some have also espoused views that have offended Jews, hence The Board of Deputies of British Jews is also understood to have written to Mr Cameron to protest at the presence of the eastern Europeans in Manchester."
Doesn't he or she also think that Homosexuals offend others, Muslims for example. What would have been said if the British Muslim Council had written to Mr Cameron to protest at the Tory Gay Event in Manchester?
"quinlad, You're quite probably of the same "persuasion" as Messrs Fry and Izzard judging by your impassioned condemnation of me? "
So, you attack gays for allegedly accusing anyone who opposes them as homophobic, yet when Quinlad challenges you, your response is basically "I bet you're gay, aren't you?"
Brilliant.
So, you attack gays for allegedly accusing anyone who opposes them as homophobic, yet when Quinlad challenges you, your response is basically "I bet you're gay, aren't you?"
Brilliant.
"Like all minority groups they expected (no demand) to be tolerant towards them, but they don't respond in a similar way I am afraid."
WHAT?! I'll admit there are some I've met gay guys who are like that. But the gay community hasn't 'demanded' tolerance. The LGB community had to fight bitterly for years just to be able to do in their own homes what heterosexuals had always been able to do. "Toleration" really isn't much to ask, AOG - all it means is that at the very least you leave people alone without harrassment. Similarly to you (and ahmskunnirt) keep equally requesting that people respect your views, all that gay people want is to be treated like anyone else.
"Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them, the same as any other persons, but no they take every opportunity to highlight the fact that they are gay, and as such demand that others grant them special rights."
You really, really do write some disgusting things on here sometimes, AOG. I think this is a repulsive thing to say. Y'know what? There are plenty of gay people who 'make a thing of it', but frankly that's their right. Why shouldn't they be allowed to? Funny how you only ever seem to cry freedom of speech when it's in your favour, eh? And even with those members aside, there are LOADS of gay people who never 'make a thing of it' - who if you met in person you'd likely have no idea unless you asked or it came up. But I guess that doesn't fit into how you're trying very hard to view the issue.
WHAT?! I'll admit there are some I've met gay guys who are like that. But the gay community hasn't 'demanded' tolerance. The LGB community had to fight bitterly for years just to be able to do in their own homes what heterosexuals had always been able to do. "Toleration" really isn't much to ask, AOG - all it means is that at the very least you leave people alone without harrassment. Similarly to you (and ahmskunnirt) keep equally requesting that people respect your views, all that gay people want is to be treated like anyone else.
"Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them, the same as any other persons, but no they take every opportunity to highlight the fact that they are gay, and as such demand that others grant them special rights."
You really, really do write some disgusting things on here sometimes, AOG. I think this is a repulsive thing to say. Y'know what? There are plenty of gay people who 'make a thing of it', but frankly that's their right. Why shouldn't they be allowed to? Funny how you only ever seem to cry freedom of speech when it's in your favour, eh? And even with those members aside, there are LOADS of gay people who never 'make a thing of it' - who if you met in person you'd likely have no idea unless you asked or it came up. But I guess that doesn't fit into how you're trying very hard to view the issue.
"Doesn't he or she also think that Homosexuals offend others, Muslims for example."
Yes. The number of homosexuals hanged or stoned to death in Muslim countries illustrates very well how much the peaceful Islamic states are offended.
Strange that you choose to use Muslims to bolster your argument. It is quite difficult to determine whom you most revile; Muslims or gays.
Yes. The number of homosexuals hanged or stoned to death in Muslim countries illustrates very well how much the peaceful Islamic states are offended.
Strange that you choose to use Muslims to bolster your argument. It is quite difficult to determine whom you most revile; Muslims or gays.
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AOG
"if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them"
Not sure that's true. Minority groups have always had to fight for their rights. It's never just handed out on a plate.
"Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them"
That's a bit... Bruce Forsythe-y.
This is how it works - 40 years ago, the accepted rule is that gay people had to be ashamed of thenselves and accept the situation that exposure would mean social exclusion.
Now however, gay people can be as gay as straight people are straight. You know what I mean - you see the lads in the pub loudly proclaiming how many 'birds they've shagged' and 'look at the t*ts on that' (etc)
Well it works both ways now. Gay people don't need to be dictated to by the majority. As a libertarian, I'm sure you would join me in celebrating that. I mean, no-one is telling you to accept homosexuality - the situation now however is that gays will tell you exactly what they think of you when you criticism them...and with fear.
And we should all applaud the removal of fear, shouldn't we?
"if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them"
Not sure that's true. Minority groups have always had to fight for their rights. It's never just handed out on a plate.
"Regarding the Gays, if they did not make such a point of being gay, then perhaps straight people would come to accept them"
That's a bit... Bruce Forsythe-y.
This is how it works - 40 years ago, the accepted rule is that gay people had to be ashamed of thenselves and accept the situation that exposure would mean social exclusion.
Now however, gay people can be as gay as straight people are straight. You know what I mean - you see the lads in the pub loudly proclaiming how many 'birds they've shagged' and 'look at the t*ts on that' (etc)
Well it works both ways now. Gay people don't need to be dictated to by the majority. As a libertarian, I'm sure you would join me in celebrating that. I mean, no-one is telling you to accept homosexuality - the situation now however is that gays will tell you exactly what they think of you when you criticism them...and with fear.
And we should all applaud the removal of fear, shouldn't we?
Yes, ahmskunnirt, you did say that - while demonstrating the opposite in the exact same post. That's what's so funny.
Incidentally, what you're doing is confusing 'freedom of speech' with 'immunity from debate' - although I can see why you'd be not want your argument to be questioned. It does fall apart hilariously easily - eg, whinging and mewling about the unfairness of labels like 'homophobe', while casually chucking around labels like 'abhorrent', 'unacceptable' and 'unnatural'. Cracking stuff.
Incidentally, what you're doing is confusing 'freedom of speech' with 'immunity from debate' - although I can see why you'd be not want your argument to be questioned. It does fall apart hilariously easily - eg, whinging and mewling about the unfairness of labels like 'homophobe', while casually chucking around labels like 'abhorrent', 'unacceptable' and 'unnatural'. Cracking stuff.
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Kromovaracun I don't know why it is so disgusting to quote facts.
It is a fact that gays go out of their way to promote their sexuallity, hence their need for gay marches, where they will dress up and flaunt themselves, do heterosexuals find the need to proclaim to all and sundry " look we are heterosexual".
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jackthehat
"Doesn't he or she also think that Homosexuals offend others, Muslims for example."
Strange that you choose to use Muslims to bolster your argument. It is quite difficult to determine whom you most revile; Muslims or gays.
I don't condone Islam's attitude to gays, the reason I used Muslims to bolster my argument was because of their strict attitude towards Gays. Iit was you who saw nothing wrong with quoting that some MEPs offended the Jews, so why should I not also use Muslims in my argument?
It is a fact that gays go out of their way to promote their sexuallity, hence their need for gay marches, where they will dress up and flaunt themselves, do heterosexuals find the need to proclaim to all and sundry " look we are heterosexual".
----------------------------------------------------
jackthehat
"Doesn't he or she also think that Homosexuals offend others, Muslims for example."
Strange that you choose to use Muslims to bolster your argument. It is quite difficult to determine whom you most revile; Muslims or gays.
I don't condone Islam's attitude to gays, the reason I used Muslims to bolster my argument was because of their strict attitude towards Gays. Iit was you who saw nothing wrong with quoting that some MEPs offended the Jews, so why should I not also use Muslims in my argument?
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"It is a fact that gays go out of their way to promote their sexuallity, hence their need for gay marches, where they will dress up and flaunt themselves, do heterosexuals find the need to proclaim to all and sundry " look we are heterosexual"."
As sp points out, there are plenty of heterosexual men who quite boisterously assert their sexuality. It's just not noticed as much because it's quite usual. And also there are plenty of LGB people who aren't like that. At a Pride march, you get some people who are really into it, but you also get a lot of people who are there just for the sense of community, or to see their friends or to have some fun.
And even if you're right (which I don't think you are), so what? Do people not have the right to choose what it is about themselves they're proud of? If they want to celebrate it, then why shouldn't they? Because you find it objectionable? I'm sure you can see how that doesn't work, considering how you quite frequently express concern about freedom of speech.
Seeing as you asked what I find disgusting, I'll tell you. It's the level of... well... what seems like hate, actually, coming from your posts. That's the best way I can think of putting it. You really do seem genuinely reviled by the above. I find that abhorrent. Of course you have the right to think that, I'm not disputing that, but I do still find it abhorrent. Not because I think you have to be gay-friendly, of course I don't, but because toleration (not meaning, as you seem to think it does, liking) is part of not only modern political life but also, frankly, adult life. I'm actually quite horrified that someone of your advanced years doesn't realise that.
As sp points out, there are plenty of heterosexual men who quite boisterously assert their sexuality. It's just not noticed as much because it's quite usual. And also there are plenty of LGB people who aren't like that. At a Pride march, you get some people who are really into it, but you also get a lot of people who are there just for the sense of community, or to see their friends or to have some fun.
And even if you're right (which I don't think you are), so what? Do people not have the right to choose what it is about themselves they're proud of? If they want to celebrate it, then why shouldn't they? Because you find it objectionable? I'm sure you can see how that doesn't work, considering how you quite frequently express concern about freedom of speech.
Seeing as you asked what I find disgusting, I'll tell you. It's the level of... well... what seems like hate, actually, coming from your posts. That's the best way I can think of putting it. You really do seem genuinely reviled by the above. I find that abhorrent. Of course you have the right to think that, I'm not disputing that, but I do still find it abhorrent. Not because I think you have to be gay-friendly, of course I don't, but because toleration (not meaning, as you seem to think it does, liking) is part of not only modern political life but also, frankly, adult life. I'm actually quite horrified that someone of your advanced years doesn't realise that.
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"So, Kromo, "if they want to celebrate it, then why shouldn't they?" Fine, fine. Therefore you have no objections to the BNP marching along your street, their banners and flags flying, handing out their leaflets to you and yours, eh?"
Not particularly. Do you? Regardless of how foul I find them, I think it's more pragmatic to let them than to bar them, for sure, but that's another debate.
"ncidentally, you're fond of using little abbreviations, i.e. "LGB"? Means zilch to me. Is it a code for something? And what's a "Pride march"? And what use or purpose does or would it serve? I've no idea, please enlighten me? "
Sorry, they're quite common around me so I often assume others are out of habit. Apologies.
LGB or LGBT = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual (for various reasons it varies as to whether you include the 'T'). It's just as an easier, more accurate shorthand way of addressing that section of the population, as opposed to the slightly derogatory terms like 'The Gays' etc.
A Pride march = a Gay Pride march. Gay Pride as a concept is just the idea of celebrating one's sexual identity, and it largely stems from the fact that you're now even able to identify other than heterosexual without fear of persecution (but not without harrassment necessarily). In practice, it's a much broader term. Different people see it differently, but though a Pride march is nominally about celebration I think 'togetherness' is probably a more accurate way of putting it. It's one of the few points of unity or focus that exists within the LGB community. Pride events don't alway involve marches either (though as far as I know they normally do), but they usually involve lots of other events as well like entertainment, speeches etc.
Not particularly. Do you? Regardless of how foul I find them, I think it's more pragmatic to let them than to bar them, for sure, but that's another debate.
"ncidentally, you're fond of using little abbreviations, i.e. "LGB"? Means zilch to me. Is it a code for something? And what's a "Pride march"? And what use or purpose does or would it serve? I've no idea, please enlighten me? "
Sorry, they're quite common around me so I often assume others are out of habit. Apologies.
LGB or LGBT = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual (for various reasons it varies as to whether you include the 'T'). It's just as an easier, more accurate shorthand way of addressing that section of the population, as opposed to the slightly derogatory terms like 'The Gays' etc.
A Pride march = a Gay Pride march. Gay Pride as a concept is just the idea of celebrating one's sexual identity, and it largely stems from the fact that you're now even able to identify other than heterosexual without fear of persecution (but not without harrassment necessarily). In practice, it's a much broader term. Different people see it differently, but though a Pride march is nominally about celebration I think 'togetherness' is probably a more accurate way of putting it. It's one of the few points of unity or focus that exists within the LGB community. Pride events don't alway involve marches either (though as far as I know they normally do), but they usually involve lots of other events as well like entertainment, speeches etc.
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