Does Fronier Give You A Refund?
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FAO: Mr Veritas
15 Answers
Hi Alec, hope you see this before it disappears?
In considering your answer to Ultraman's post 'God's Way' I was wondering why you connect God with Hell? You know much better than I do that Man can be evil, inhuman, depraved, sick and vile, you yourself experienced 'hell' during WW2 as I understand it. But why do you say that 'God put some of his people through hell?' Is this solely the Christian interpretation?
You see I believe, at the moment, that natural disasters is the evolutionary state of the Planet, the 'bad' stuff that happens is people and the 'good' stuff is either people or God/Spirits?
And I hope that all is still well your end? (code,wink)
In considering your answer to Ultraman's post 'God's Way' I was wondering why you connect God with Hell? You know much better than I do that Man can be evil, inhuman, depraved, sick and vile, you yourself experienced 'hell' during WW2 as I understand it. But why do you say that 'God put some of his people through hell?' Is this solely the Christian interpretation?
You see I believe, at the moment, that natural disasters is the evolutionary state of the Planet, the 'bad' stuff that happens is people and the 'good' stuff is either people or God/Spirits?
And I hope that all is still well your end? (code,wink)
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i aint veritas, but in christianity hell is taught as the final destiny of those who have not accepted jesus as their saviour after they have passed through the great white throne of judgment where they will be punished by god for sin and permanently separated from him after the general resurrection and last judgment.
that’s a pretty clear connection to ‘god’. not my connection, as i don’t believe either exist. that is how christians are meant to see it.
that’s a pretty clear connection to ‘god’. not my connection, as i don’t believe either exist. that is how christians are meant to see it.
It is the anonymous name that gave you away Ankou - See I'm quick, figured you weren't Alec.
I still don't buy that, not in this day and age. Not as an argument. Not after we have so much exposure to different beliefs and Gods. Even if the teachings are so ingrained 50-60 years is a long time to hold such a negative belief - to blame God, not even saying a Christian God but a 'God' and not evil people?
I watched 'Invictus' last night and if Nelson Mandela can forgive the 'White' people for locking him up for nearly 30 years I was wondering why there is not alittle belief in some goodness of 'God' left in Alec? (Not saying forgiveness at all) Doesn't have to be a Christian God? I know that 'Invictus' does not compare to WW2, it's just that Nelson Mandela from the film was apart of my thinking that raised this thought. I apologise if its totally out of order.
I still don't buy that, not in this day and age. Not as an argument. Not after we have so much exposure to different beliefs and Gods. Even if the teachings are so ingrained 50-60 years is a long time to hold such a negative belief - to blame God, not even saying a Christian God but a 'God' and not evil people?
I watched 'Invictus' last night and if Nelson Mandela can forgive the 'White' people for locking him up for nearly 30 years I was wondering why there is not alittle belief in some goodness of 'God' left in Alec? (Not saying forgiveness at all) Doesn't have to be a Christian God? I know that 'Invictus' does not compare to WW2, it's just that Nelson Mandela from the film was apart of my thinking that raised this thought. I apologise if its totally out of order.
Hello Seadragon,
When I said that "God put some of his people through hell"
I was referring to the Hell that he put the Jews through in the Holocaust.
This is main reason(amongst others) that prompted my wife to renounce her Jewish faith.
She could not comprehend that Jews (who thought they were Gods chosen people) were allowed by god to have to suffer in such a way.
Sorry if my implication was not clear.
When I said that "God put some of his people through hell"
I was referring to the Hell that he put the Jews through in the Holocaust.
This is main reason(amongst others) that prompted my wife to renounce her Jewish faith.
She could not comprehend that Jews (who thought they were Gods chosen people) were allowed by god to have to suffer in such a way.
Sorry if my implication was not clear.
Alec I think what remained in my mind is that element of the time gap since WW2 and the present as you so adamantly renounce a belief in any God. And I feel somewhat uncomfortable raising this with you as I feel that in some way I am pressuring you to address this and I shouldn't be. It is your view and your right to that view. So I'm going to skim it and then drop the topic.
I had an inkling that since you hold this unforgiving view of God for so long, I find it difficult to comprehend that it would not appease in any way or slightly change at some point in time unless the view was being consolidated? Your wife's experience is horrific and I totally understand she will never forgive but it is the Nazis' who killed the Jews out of rascism not God? Has she never at all compromised her prior Jewish teachings to the developing and changing views of God in a modern world? To be honest this thread is uncomfortable, I wrote a load of other stuff which I deleted. Forgive my ignorance Alec, I am just trying to understand and learn.
I had an inkling that since you hold this unforgiving view of God for so long, I find it difficult to comprehend that it would not appease in any way or slightly change at some point in time unless the view was being consolidated? Your wife's experience is horrific and I totally understand she will never forgive but it is the Nazis' who killed the Jews out of rascism not God? Has she never at all compromised her prior Jewish teachings to the developing and changing views of God in a modern world? To be honest this thread is uncomfortable, I wrote a load of other stuff which I deleted. Forgive my ignorance Alec, I am just trying to understand and learn.
Coobeastie - 'So hell is made by man as a means of control but god isnt??'
You have a point - God in some places is controlled by Man who controls Men by fear of God. But then I don't believe in Religion and culture is somewhat dangerous as well.
I don't follow religion or a religious leader. I live, see, read, feel, listen etc and decide for myself. And I have now come to the idea that since I believe people are evil and beyond (its just amazing how another big story shows beyond comprehension how sick some people are) that my view of God/Spirits as benevolent and pure as our guides in life, not an after-life only life, that they are an existence which is there to realise if you so want to (it should be realised independently though not through subsciption to a religion).
That metaphysical existence has no connection with 'wrong' or 'vice' only with 'virtue' as a guide whilst the person is living. But Man twists and he has always twisted history for his own desires.
You have a point - God in some places is controlled by Man who controls Men by fear of God. But then I don't believe in Religion and culture is somewhat dangerous as well.
I don't follow religion or a religious leader. I live, see, read, feel, listen etc and decide for myself. And I have now come to the idea that since I believe people are evil and beyond (its just amazing how another big story shows beyond comprehension how sick some people are) that my view of God/Spirits as benevolent and pure as our guides in life, not an after-life only life, that they are an existence which is there to realise if you so want to (it should be realised independently though not through subsciption to a religion).
That metaphysical existence has no connection with 'wrong' or 'vice' only with 'virtue' as a guide whilst the person is living. But Man twists and he has always twisted history for his own desires.
Seadragon,
It's cool.
Now,you know why I don't beleive in god,due to my experiences in the liberation of Bergen Belsen Concentration camp.
No, over the years the mental wounds I received there started to heal(but not fade away).
Since then,there have been further attrocities in many countries that only go to reinforce my views as to the lack of a god.
I had (naively) hoped that the world would take the Holocaust as a lesson and not repeat it,but it just keeps doing it,it doesn't seem to learn.
I feel if there WAS a god he would help mankind to profit from its cruelty;but the cruelty just goes on and on.
It's cool.
Now,you know why I don't beleive in god,due to my experiences in the liberation of Bergen Belsen Concentration camp.
No, over the years the mental wounds I received there started to heal(but not fade away).
Since then,there have been further attrocities in many countries that only go to reinforce my views as to the lack of a god.
I had (naively) hoped that the world would take the Holocaust as a lesson and not repeat it,but it just keeps doing it,it doesn't seem to learn.
I feel if there WAS a god he would help mankind to profit from its cruelty;but the cruelty just goes on and on.
As regards my wife.
As you know she was Jewish,but is now (like myself) an Aethist.
She felt(after her experiences) two things.
One~That the god she had been taught to respect had abandoned her people,the same people that had been taught that they were the chosen of god.If so how could god allow them to be treated that way?
I am sorry,but the following line smacks to me of 21stC political correctness. "Has she never at all compromised her prior Jewish teachings to the developing and changing views of God in a modern world?"
One of the main tenets (and yes maybe faults) of the Jewish religion is,tradition and sticking to rules made thousands of years ago are the bedrock of their faith.
Elsie's (and my) view of her god is that he is cruel and vindictive,and only returns love with hate and punishment.
So in some ways some Jews believe they were punished by god with the Holocaust for wrongs they did.This view didn't help Elsie at all.
It doesn't matter who or why the Jews were killed,to us it proves the non~existence of god because he allowed the Nazis to do it.
This was very shocking to the Jews when they thought they had a "hot line" to god,and he abandoned the to their fat.
This just confirmed to many Jews that there was no god.
Just a comment on part of your question,namely this:~
You see I believe, at the moment, that natural disasters is the evolutionary state of the Planet, the 'bad' stuff that happens is people and the 'good' stuff is either people or God/Spirits?
Your belief (I am sorry to say) in this respect is a "cop out".
Either god does exist a\nd is responsible (for whatever reason) for good AND bad,
Or
Man is responsible for good AND bad.
You can't have it both ways it's not logical.
As you know she was Jewish,but is now (like myself) an Aethist.
She felt(after her experiences) two things.
One~That the god she had been taught to respect had abandoned her people,the same people that had been taught that they were the chosen of god.If so how could god allow them to be treated that way?
I am sorry,but the following line smacks to me of 21stC political correctness. "Has she never at all compromised her prior Jewish teachings to the developing and changing views of God in a modern world?"
One of the main tenets (and yes maybe faults) of the Jewish religion is,tradition and sticking to rules made thousands of years ago are the bedrock of their faith.
Elsie's (and my) view of her god is that he is cruel and vindictive,and only returns love with hate and punishment.
So in some ways some Jews believe they were punished by god with the Holocaust for wrongs they did.This view didn't help Elsie at all.
It doesn't matter who or why the Jews were killed,to us it proves the non~existence of god because he allowed the Nazis to do it.
This was very shocking to the Jews when they thought they had a "hot line" to god,and he abandoned the to their fat.
This just confirmed to many Jews that there was no god.
Just a comment on part of your question,namely this:~
You see I believe, at the moment, that natural disasters is the evolutionary state of the Planet, the 'bad' stuff that happens is people and the 'good' stuff is either people or God/Spirits?
Your belief (I am sorry to say) in this respect is a "cop out".
Either god does exist a\nd is responsible (for whatever reason) for good AND bad,
Or
Man is responsible for good AND bad.
You can't have it both ways it's not logical.
I really appreciate you answering this Alec and I note your points. I will no doubt re-read them during the week and take on board what you say. There is a deeper understanding/insight to be gained by these last two posts.
I'm being cheeky in that I'm not having it both ways but three ways -
1) Evolutionary - I am all for Darwin's theory as evidence proves it.
2) Man is capable of the most horrendous acts imaginable.
3) God/Spirits are of pure benevolence, as an entity they guide us in making a better existence should be choose to see it. Man is good on his own, he has morals as a guide but since Man is also bad these morals can be easily eroded if that Man is placed in a different circumstance. A belief in God/Spirits is a reinforcement against that darkness I suppose for some people?
It may not sound logical but I live with it quite easily. Thanks again x
I'm being cheeky in that I'm not having it both ways but three ways -
1) Evolutionary - I am all for Darwin's theory as evidence proves it.
2) Man is capable of the most horrendous acts imaginable.
3) God/Spirits are of pure benevolence, as an entity they guide us in making a better existence should be choose to see it. Man is good on his own, he has morals as a guide but since Man is also bad these morals can be easily eroded if that Man is placed in a different circumstance. A belief in God/Spirits is a reinforcement against that darkness I suppose for some people?
It may not sound logical but I live with it quite easily. Thanks again x
Sorry last post - The written words Bergen Belson Concentration Camp came to the forefront of my mind this morning whilst I was pouring my cereal and I thought, Alec and Elsie are amazing people and I wondered, if you haven't already, considered writing about your experiences, not just of the Camp but the enduring effect of the experience and effect upon your views of the World including that of Religion? I know it would be a very difficult thing to do but it would be so interesting. I would look out for it - a book by Alec and Elsie Veritas.
Don't know if you've seen the film 'The Reader' - Kate Winslet and Ralph Fiennes, it is really good and another engaging angle from those involved with the Concentration Camps.
P.S - Society I keep forgetting to mention that thank you, I did have a reasonably enjoyable day.
Don't know if you've seen the film 'The Reader' - Kate Winslet and Ralph Fiennes, it is really good and another engaging angle from those involved with the Concentration Camps.
P.S - Society I keep forgetting to mention that thank you, I did have a reasonably enjoyable day.
Good Morning Seadragon,
While writing a book about both my and Elsie's experiences might be a good thing for some (maybe younger) people,in especially Elsie's case I don't think it will come oof.
Elsie still has problems trying to blot out her experiences in Bergen Belsen,I don't think she would want to plumb the depths of her memory to relive them agai;it would be rather like diving into a septic tank and imagining that you would come out smelling of roses.
I went to see the film "The Reader" (on my own) Elsie (again for obvio0us reasons didn't.I said to her after seeing it that I thought she would not be TOO disturbed by it,so we got it on DVD.
She hasn't watched it YET.
Whilst I remain detached from the plight of the central character,I did think that it showed how seemingly innocent people could get "sucked" into a situation that was out of their control.
Whether Elsie will see it that way I don't know (even after our very long marriage there are STILL areas of Elsie's mind/soul/memories that I have no access to).
Thanks for your interest.
Alec.
While writing a book about both my and Elsie's experiences might be a good thing for some (maybe younger) people,in especially Elsie's case I don't think it will come oof.
Elsie still has problems trying to blot out her experiences in Bergen Belsen,I don't think she would want to plumb the depths of her memory to relive them agai;it would be rather like diving into a septic tank and imagining that you would come out smelling of roses.
I went to see the film "The Reader" (on my own) Elsie (again for obvio0us reasons didn't.I said to her after seeing it that I thought she would not be TOO disturbed by it,so we got it on DVD.
She hasn't watched it YET.
Whilst I remain detached from the plight of the central character,I did think that it showed how seemingly innocent people could get "sucked" into a situation that was out of their control.
Whether Elsie will see it that way I don't know (even after our very long marriage there are STILL areas of Elsie's mind/soul/memories that I have no access to).
Thanks for your interest.
Alec.
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