Trump/Ukraine, What Will He Do?
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Project: Reforming Oldgit
Since you yourself are good at excuses, then I am blaming the fact that it is not raining today on my being outdoors with my family and my response to you will have to wait until tomorrow.
I made a mistake by asking you for an apology directed at myself and Onlineoap, as you rightly pointed out 'others' then since I ask for you to take some responsilibity for your comments said on a public website your apology should be directed at the public.
I brought up slavery as a reminder of the physical effects of racism. I brought it up so you could see that racial comments can poison a mind and lead to actions of racial prejudice. You seem to develop another argument out of the issue but I shall respond to that.
How you manage to compare 'crimes' in South Africa to Haiti is beyond my comprehension. Haiti suffers from the aftermath of an earthquake rebuilding itself from poverty (why the Country's poor - ask the 'white' man to put it bluntly) and South Africa is rebuilding itself from years of oppression and prejudice - caused by who? ummm.....not sure.
But since you raise South Africa and I happen to be coincedentally reading Mandela's 'Long Walk to Freedom' I shall leave you some quotes from the text to consider and I then hope that you can in some way fight yourself to cast off your stubborness leaving some apology and then the sun itself cannot shine any brighter than the light which would be emitted from Answerbank.
Have a good day.
I made a mistake by asking you for an apology directed at myself and Onlineoap, as you rightly pointed out 'others' then since I ask for you to take some responsilibity for your comments said on a public website your apology should be directed at the public.
I brought up slavery as a reminder of the physical effects of racism. I brought it up so you could see that racial comments can poison a mind and lead to actions of racial prejudice. You seem to develop another argument out of the issue but I shall respond to that.
How you manage to compare 'crimes' in South Africa to Haiti is beyond my comprehension. Haiti suffers from the aftermath of an earthquake rebuilding itself from poverty (why the Country's poor - ask the 'white' man to put it bluntly) and South Africa is rebuilding itself from years of oppression and prejudice - caused by who? ummm.....not sure.
But since you raise South Africa and I happen to be coincedentally reading Mandela's 'Long Walk to Freedom' I shall leave you some quotes from the text to consider and I then hope that you can in some way fight yourself to cast off your stubborness leaving some apology and then the sun itself cannot shine any brighter than the light which would be emitted from Answerbank.
Have a good day.
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Fortunately for you I'm only on page 49 of a 751 page book. Here goes:
P.34 'A Country Childhood' - 'The main speaker of the day was Chief Meligquili..........We have just circumcised them (Mandela and young boys) in a ritual that promises them manhood, but I am here to tell you that it is an empty, illusory promise, a promise that can never be fulfilled. For we Xhosas, and all black South Africans, are a conquered people. We are slaves in our own country.
(spaced for your easy perusal Oldgit) We are tenants on our own soil. We have no strength, no power, no control over our own destiny in the land of our birth.
They will go to cities where they will live in shacks and drink cheap alcohol, all because we have no land to give them where they could prosper and multiply. They will cough their lungs out deep in the bowels of the white man's mines, destroying their health, never seeing the sun, so that the white man can live a life of unequalled prosperity.
Among these young men are chiefs who will never rule because we have no power to govern ourselves; soldiers who will never fight for we have no weapons to fight with; scholars who will never teach because we have no place for them to study.
The abilities, the intelligence, the promise of these young men will be squandered in their attempt to eke out a living doing the simplest, most mindless chores for the white man.
cont....
P.34 'A Country Childhood' - 'The main speaker of the day was Chief Meligquili..........We have just circumcised them (Mandela and young boys) in a ritual that promises them manhood, but I am here to tell you that it is an empty, illusory promise, a promise that can never be fulfilled. For we Xhosas, and all black South Africans, are a conquered people. We are slaves in our own country.
(spaced for your easy perusal Oldgit) We are tenants on our own soil. We have no strength, no power, no control over our own destiny in the land of our birth.
They will go to cities where they will live in shacks and drink cheap alcohol, all because we have no land to give them where they could prosper and multiply. They will cough their lungs out deep in the bowels of the white man's mines, destroying their health, never seeing the sun, so that the white man can live a life of unequalled prosperity.
Among these young men are chiefs who will never rule because we have no power to govern ourselves; soldiers who will never fight for we have no weapons to fight with; scholars who will never teach because we have no place for them to study.
The abilities, the intelligence, the promise of these young men will be squandered in their attempt to eke out a living doing the simplest, most mindless chores for the white man.
cont....
'The audience had become more and more quiet as Chief Meligquili spoke and I think, more and more angry. No one wanted to hear the words that he spoke that day. I know that I myself did not want to hear them.
I was cross rather than aroused by the Chief's remarks, dismissing his words as the abusive comments of an ignorant man who was unable to appreciate the value of the education and benefits that the white man had brought to our country.
At the time, I looked on the white man not as an oppressor but as a benefactor, and I thought the chief was enormously ungrateful.'
'But without exactly understanding why, his words soon began to work on me. He had sown a seed, and although I let that seed lie dormant for a long season, it eventually began to grow.
Later I realised that the ignorant man that day was not the Chief but myself.'
cont....
I was cross rather than aroused by the Chief's remarks, dismissing his words as the abusive comments of an ignorant man who was unable to appreciate the value of the education and benefits that the white man had brought to our country.
At the time, I looked on the white man not as an oppressor but as a benefactor, and I thought the chief was enormously ungrateful.'
'But without exactly understanding why, his words soon began to work on me. He had sown a seed, and although I let that seed lie dormant for a long season, it eventually began to grow.
Later I realised that the ignorant man that day was not the Chief but myself.'
cont....
P.40 - 'In those days a black man with a BA was expected to scrape before a white man with a primary school education.
No matter how high a black man advanced, he was still considered inferior to the lowest white man.
P.43 - Mandela talking about his time at College......... 'The Principle of Healdtown was Dr Arthur Wellington, a stout and stuffy Englishman who boasted of his connection to one Duke of Wellington.
At the outset of assemblies, he would walk on stage and say, in his deep bass voice, 'I am the descendant of the great Duke of Wellington, aristocrat, statesman, and general, who crushed the Frenchman Napoleon at Waterloo and thereby saved civilization for Europe - and for you, the natives.'
At this, we would all enthusiastically applaud, each of us profoundly grateful that a descendant of the great Duke of Wellington would take the trouble to educate natives such as ourselves.
The educated Englishman was our model; what we aspired to be were 'black Englishmen', as we were sometimes derisively called.
We were taught - and believed - that the best ideas were English ideas, the best government was English government and the best men were Englishmen.
cont...
No matter how high a black man advanced, he was still considered inferior to the lowest white man.
P.43 - Mandela talking about his time at College......... 'The Principle of Healdtown was Dr Arthur Wellington, a stout and stuffy Englishman who boasted of his connection to one Duke of Wellington.
At the outset of assemblies, he would walk on stage and say, in his deep bass voice, 'I am the descendant of the great Duke of Wellington, aristocrat, statesman, and general, who crushed the Frenchman Napoleon at Waterloo and thereby saved civilization for Europe - and for you, the natives.'
At this, we would all enthusiastically applaud, each of us profoundly grateful that a descendant of the great Duke of Wellington would take the trouble to educate natives such as ourselves.
The educated Englishman was our model; what we aspired to be were 'black Englishmen', as we were sometimes derisively called.
We were taught - and believed - that the best ideas were English ideas, the best government was English government and the best men were Englishmen.
cont...
I jumped ahead to the back.
P.750 - 'I was not born with a hunger to be free. I was born free - free in every way that I could know. Free to run in the fields near my mother's hut, free to swim in the clear stream that ran through my village, free to roast mealies under the stars and ride the broad backs of slow-moving balls.
It was only when I began to learn that my boyhood freedom was an illusion, when I discovered as a young man that my freedom had alreay been taken from me, that I began to hunger for it.
But then I slowly saw that not only was I not free, but my brothers and sisters were not free. I saw that it was not just my freedom that was curtailed, but the freedom of everyone who looked like I did.
The truth is that we are not yet free; we have merely achieved the freedom to be free, the right not to be oppressed.
We have not taken the final step of our journey, but the first step on a longer and even more difficult road. For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others......
But I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom come responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended.
cont.....
P.750 - 'I was not born with a hunger to be free. I was born free - free in every way that I could know. Free to run in the fields near my mother's hut, free to swim in the clear stream that ran through my village, free to roast mealies under the stars and ride the broad backs of slow-moving balls.
It was only when I began to learn that my boyhood freedom was an illusion, when I discovered as a young man that my freedom had alreay been taken from me, that I began to hunger for it.
But then I slowly saw that not only was I not free, but my brothers and sisters were not free. I saw that it was not just my freedom that was curtailed, but the freedom of everyone who looked like I did.
The truth is that we are not yet free; we have merely achieved the freedom to be free, the right not to be oppressed.
We have not taken the final step of our journey, but the first step on a longer and even more difficult road. For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others......
But I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom come responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk is not yet ended.
cont.....
Finished with quotes. I should have titled this thread 'Awaken Oldgit'.
Please take some responsibility for comments that are deemed offensive on a public website. If this comment of yours is not deemed as racial incitement then I really need a kick up my backside:
'But given the chance, what white person would pay a fortune to have a completely black skin?
Now be honest.'
I am just pointing out to you Oldgit that the line between controversy and offence is a thin one - you yourself said that you were on dodgy ground, I and others pointed out to you that you had crossed that line.
We are only asking for an apology.
Please take some responsibility for comments that are deemed offensive on a public website. If this comment of yours is not deemed as racial incitement then I really need a kick up my backside:
'But given the chance, what white person would pay a fortune to have a completely black skin?
Now be honest.'
I am just pointing out to you Oldgit that the line between controversy and offence is a thin one - you yourself said that you were on dodgy ground, I and others pointed out to you that you had crossed that line.
We are only asking for an apology.
Thank you Alec but I have hope. As Mandela has and all people who speak out about racism. I am not deeming Oldgit a racist, I don't think he is, he just needs to realise that his enjoyment of controversy can lead into an offensive domain and as I said I was heart-broken when I read his comments. I lay in bed in the early hours of the morning with his words stirring in my head and tears leeked down my face.
Even now the tears have started and I don't cry over anything.
Even now the tears have started and I don't cry over anything.
history of abolishment of slavery....doesn't mean it's over - visit Africa to see indiginous enslaving their own. Slavery brought about industrial revolution, wealth, work & food for all. Look at todays land-grab of Zimbabwi (pre Rhodesia, under whites = food basket of Africa) now starving, sick & torturously savage. n.b. the African Chiefs sold their own tribesmen to slavery.
1759
http://www.spartacus.....uk/REwilberforce.htm
1807
http://www.spartacus.....co.uk/Lslavery07.htm
1862
http://www.danielnpau...SlaveryAbolished.html
1759
http://www.spartacus.....uk/REwilberforce.htm
1807
http://www.spartacus.....co.uk/Lslavery07.htm
1862
http://www.danielnpau...SlaveryAbolished.html
If memory serves Tambo, the land in Rhodesia was taken off the blacks during WW2 by Churchill, Brits were encouraged to move to Rhodesia and farm the land for the war effort.
The residents were quickly evicted and told that the matter would be settled after the war.
When all the troubles with Smith were over Thatcher's government sat down with Mugabe to try and resolve it.
In 1997 an agreement was reached which the Major government hadn't signed, Blair came in and decided to rip it up as it was nothing to do with Labour's government.
So Zimbabwe started to evict farmers from "their" land.
That said "Africa for Africans" will result in nothing but poverty in that continent.
The residents were quickly evicted and told that the matter would be settled after the war.
When all the troubles with Smith were over Thatcher's government sat down with Mugabe to try and resolve it.
In 1997 an agreement was reached which the Major government hadn't signed, Blair came in and decided to rip it up as it was nothing to do with Labour's government.
So Zimbabwe started to evict farmers from "their" land.
That said "Africa for Africans" will result in nothing but poverty in that continent.
I have read all the As and Qs and over the years I have read many books on the subject of colonialism. As a result my sympathy has been with the native peoples in Africa and Asia but it is now about 50 years since most of these countries have been governed by their own people. Which leaves me with two questions:
1. How much longer are the Africans going to blame the white man for their problems.?
2. Why are the Asians so successful despite having a similar colonial history ?
1. How much longer are the Africans going to blame the white man for their problems.?
2. Why are the Asians so successful despite having a similar colonial history ?
You and others (including war veterans) will wait a long time for an apology from the slithering thing that passes itself off as a man and calls itself AOG.
We already know his values are somewhat perverted from his own posts such as this one:
Thread ‘Women & Child Killers Mon 12:20/12.55 15/Mar/10)
/// They maybe child molesters, benefit fraudsters, or liars but that doesn't automatically stop them from being patriots ... I would much rather have them fighting by my side, than the "traitors within" who would turn this country over to the enemy at the drop of a hat.///
It's unlikely any sort of honourable or decent behaviour would be forthcoming from something with such perverted values. He will more likely just stay under the stone where he resides.
We already know his values are somewhat perverted from his own posts such as this one:
Thread ‘Women & Child Killers Mon 12:20/12.55 15/Mar/10)
/// They maybe child molesters, benefit fraudsters, or liars but that doesn't automatically stop them from being patriots ... I would much rather have them fighting by my side, than the "traitors within" who would turn this country over to the enemy at the drop of a hat.///
It's unlikely any sort of honourable or decent behaviour would be forthcoming from something with such perverted values. He will more likely just stay under the stone where he resides.
123 everton I think you will find Southern and Northern Rhodesia was colonised way back in 1889 by Cecil Rhodes and was run by the British S A Company under charter until 1927 when the settlers were given the right to govern themselves, but subject to the British crown and the rules of the Commonweath The country was developed and run by the British settlers until the days of Ian Smith who declared total independence froim Britain . We would not allow that because he had not given the natives the same voting rights as the settlers. We imposed sanctions and there was sporadic uprisings led by amongst others Mugabe.
Seadragon - may I respectfully suggest that you lay this particular matter to rest ?
As Zeuhl so eloquently predicts, you'll wait a long time for AOG to apologise.
Even when does concede he is wrong, he employs such weasel words and self-serving excuses in his mealy-mouthed 'apologies', that the apology itself is utterly diminished.
He is a man quick to bridle at perceived slights, yet utter unconcerned about any offence he himself may cause.
He hides behind his right' of Free Speech (which, naturally, becomes sheer 'rudeness' when directed, by others, at him) the furore his posts create is merely 'provoking healthy debate'...........
Perhaps you will be able to resist the temptation to treat the majority of his posts and musings with the utter contempt with which long-term regular contributors (me included) treat them...........but please do not feel too bad if you can't. :o)
As Zeuhl so eloquently predicts, you'll wait a long time for AOG to apologise.
Even when does concede he is wrong, he employs such weasel words and self-serving excuses in his mealy-mouthed 'apologies', that the apology itself is utterly diminished.
He is a man quick to bridle at perceived slights, yet utter unconcerned about any offence he himself may cause.
He hides behind his right' of Free Speech (which, naturally, becomes sheer 'rudeness' when directed, by others, at him) the furore his posts create is merely 'provoking healthy debate'...........
Perhaps you will be able to resist the temptation to treat the majority of his posts and musings with the utter contempt with which long-term regular contributors (me included) treat them...........but please do not feel too bad if you can't. :o)
I do think AOG deserves to be put on the spot for this, but... I'm kind of used to him. As I said in the thread, I found his racism more funny than anything else.
I am a bit concerned about you, though, Seadragon. If someone like AOG is able to make you well up over an internet forum then, with all due respect, I really think you need to grow a bit of a skin. It's true that racist language like the kind used by AOG is toxic, but the best (and by far more entertaining) way to counter it is by mockery - which how you'll generally see quite a lot of ABers respond. AOG will doubtless be thrilled that you're taking him so seriously.
I am a bit concerned about you, though, Seadragon. If someone like AOG is able to make you well up over an internet forum then, with all due respect, I really think you need to grow a bit of a skin. It's true that racist language like the kind used by AOG is toxic, but the best (and by far more entertaining) way to counter it is by mockery - which how you'll generally see quite a lot of ABers respond. AOG will doubtless be thrilled that you're taking him so seriously.
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