Penalty Notice & Home insurance

[Northen]

I need to fill in a home insurance form and not sure what to respond? My partner got a Penalty Notice (£80) for shoplifting 2 months ago. She was not arrested or finger printed. I understand an FPN or Penalty point is not the same as a criminal conviction.

The Home insurance question states:- Have you or any of the occupants Never been convicted of any criminal offence (other than motoring convictions) or have any prosecutions pending.

If I say NO, can this make our home insurance invalid? What about the car insurance?.

Can anyone help?.

[R1Geezer]

It is a crimnal conviction. It's just a simpler way to process it that's all.

[R1Geezer]

Ok So when you are issued with one of these, can you refuse it? ie plead not guilty? Surely theft is still a criminal offence?

[sumo19]

It is not a criminal conviction. It says this on the back of the penalty notice.

Geezer is wrong. You have not been proven of any wrong doing; you cannot be classed as an ex-offender because paying the fine is neither an official finding nor an acceptance of guilt.

So basically, you're fine. If this is you're only involvement with the police then you have no criminal record, and there are no prosecutions pending following on from the incident against you.

By the way, the above is all written under the assumption that you paid the fine.

[Northen]

Just reading all the responses, it seems the Penalty Notice is not a criminal conviction or criminal record. So we do not have to declare this on Home / Car insurance or standard CRB forms. However this information is kept on the Police National Computer for life.

Anyone knows if we have to declare this in new US Visa forms? Everyone travelling to US for holiday or business needs to complete an online form. Any ideas?

[Buenchico]

Would you like an 'official' answer to your subsidiary question, or a 'real life' one? I'll offer both:

Under the provisions of Section 1182 of the (US) Immigration and Nationality Act, "any alien convicted of, or who admits having committed, or who admits committing acts which constitute the essential elements of . . . a crime involving moral turpitude" is ineligible to enter the USA. (There are exceptions relating to offences by minors and to offences which can't result in imprisonment for more than one year, but they're not relevant here).

Theft counts as 'moral turpitude'. Accepting an FPN constitutes an admission of guilt. So (doing things 'by the book') your partner can't travel under the Visa Waiver Program or (in the first instance) obtain a visa to enter the USA. He's meant to submit a visa application to the US embassy, together with a document from the Association of Chief Police Officers detailing his 'record'. He'll then have to attend an interview at the US embassy in London, only to be told that the matter has to be referred to Washington to find out whether a 'waiver of ineligibility' can be granted. The waiting time for an interview is about 4 weeks. The waiting time for a response from Washington is usually about 13 weeks (but sometimes much longer) . The processing time after that (if a visa is granted) is a further 4 weeks.

That's the 'official' answer. The 'real life' one is that the US immigration authorities have no direct access to UK police records. If your partner simply 'forgets' about his brush with the law, and enters the USA under the Visa Waiver Program (with an ESTA) there should be no problems.

Chris

[sumo19]

Accepting and paying the fine is not an acception of guilt!!

[R1Geezer]

Ok fair enough, just a little surprised that theft can now be not criminal that's all.

[dothawkes31]

But it has to be proven theft in a court of law not a fast track system like the on the spot fines, drivers who get a parking fine on the retail park where I work pay the person at the barrier kiosk the fine and don't get any further summons or driving conviction or points on their license, the matter is done and dusted on payment. It's a similar process, and as shoplifting is not high on the list of police response priorities, especially for low value items, it seems the police and other law making bodies are happy to let things like this incident be dealt with simply and with finality.

[coccinelle]

And to think that years ago you'd be shipped to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) just for stealing a handkerchief...