Friedrich Nietzsche said

[wildwood]

Is Man one of God’s blunders, or is God one of Man's?

[sandyRoe]

Whatever's current in the society we live in. The austere Islamic code seems to suit them. And our liberal mores suit us.

[naomi24]

But what happens when the two meet - as is happening now? Whose yardstick do we use?

[sandyRoe]

What's happening now could be seen as a test of the strength of our liberal ideology. That our courts defend the rights of a man who claims to hate us and all that we believe in, is a sign of our strength.

[Buenchico]

Perhaps simply basing our laws (and possibly our codes of conduct) upon the (very) FEW principles which seem to have remained common to ALL societies might be a good starting point, Naomi?

For example, I'm happy to go along with laws which prevent people suffering physical injuries, severe psychological injuries, or financial loss. (Such principles seem to be as near to 'universal' as we're likely to get). However I have no time for laws which seek to prevent people from doing things just because other people might not like it. For example, I can see absolutely no reason why (if I chose to do so) I shouldn't walk down the street naked or engage in sexual intercourse in a public place. Such actions don't cause serious harm to anyone else; they're simply imposed through moral codes (often derived from religious beliefs which I don't subscribe to) which I can't relate to.

[Buenchico]

Sandy:
I've not always agreed with everything you've written but I want to express my support for the following statement:
"That our courts defend the rights of a man who claims to hate us and all that we believe in, is a sign of our strength".

It's good that we can agree sometimes ;-)

[naomi24]

I can see what you're saying Sandy, but I believe that testing our liberal ideology is at the best foolhardy, senseless and self-destructive. With the current situation we face, we don't have the luxury of the time to test anything because whilst the liberals among us see our penchant for all encompassing human rights as a strength, our enemies see it as a weakness, and they don't hesitate to take full advantage of it.

I agree with you to a degree Chris, but I personally wouldn't want to see people walking down the street naked or having sexual intercourse in public. That, to me, would indicate a backward step in our intellectual development and the complete abandonment of personal responsibility and a personal sense of self-respect - and that is something that, in my opinion, is absolutely vital to any civilised society.

[naomi24]

Oops, seems I disagree with both of you. I believe the man you're talking about forfeited his rights when he became an enemy of his adopted homeland - but that's another argument which, I believe, is currently being waged on a couple of threads in news. Best we stick to the subject of the question don'tcha think? :o)

[Buenchico]

I've got to go to bed now because I've got to get up in less than 5 hours time to work a 14 hour stint. So this will be my last post tonight.

However I have to observe that there seem to be plenty of people around who are happy to adopt a 'universal' system of rights when doing so meets with their ideas and beliefs but who then seem equally happy to 'move the goalposts' when the same rights are given to people whose beliefs or actions they're not in sympathy with.

[naomi24]

You've lost me there, but hopefully all will be revealed when you have time to get back. Night.

[jaydah]

The man in question is riding rough shod over our laws and standards. I dont see it shows strength to let him get away with it. In fact, by giving him the right of abode here we are denying his original homeland the justice they seek to administer on him.

[wildwood]

you've lost me jaydah. Which man, Nietzsche?

[sandyRoe]

No. Nietzsche has long gone to face judgement from the God he doesn't believe in.
There were threads about Abu Hamza which drew a lot of comment.

[jomifl]

If god wanted us to obey the ten commandments he would have written them in English

[jomifl]

I supect that the reason that abu hamza is being allowed to retain his british passport is so that he can be extradited to the countries that want to put him on trial. As a stateless person the crown would not have the authority to extradite him, Discuss.

[scotman]

I have no idea what Nietzsche died from but using it as a reason to denigrate his intellect seems as sensible as ridiculing Dylan Thomas because he drank too much.

[sandyRoe]

The illness that carried him off took him first to an asylum on the way to the graveyard. It's likely, though I have no evidence, that some of his writings were the product of a brain in the early stages of that disease.

[naomi24]

I see Chris hasn't come back to explain what he meant, but it seems rather contradictory that someone who claims to be a nihilist somehow feels justified in levelling judgement at what he considers to be the unacceptable moral values of others.