Are we sending too many kids to University?

[rov1200]

Labour's intentions were to send 50% of children to university. The coalition seems intent to continue this plan. Shouldn't the truth be told there are not enough skilled jobs to cater for all of them? Has the glut of university graduates now weakened their value?
Should the target now be 10% so that the degree would be held in esteem and jobs would be available for those graduates that deserve them?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11946585

[Zeuhl]

Sandy

that's all very well but it presupposes:
a) the uni courses are equipping them to prosper in that environment
b) the 'decent jobs' will actually exist in sufficient numbers to meet the elevated expectations of the graduates.

otherwise we will have a lot of disappointed people.
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[jake-the-peg]

What a pile of Rot!

We are crying out for highly skilled, highly technical people.

Where I work we simply can't get enough good people from this country and have to rely on foreign workers making up a large chunk of the workforce.

The real problem is that we don't have enough companies taking on graduates everyone, including us, want people with a few years experience under their belts.

With increased globalisation most unskilled jobs are done abroad at wages we cannot compete with - unless you can find people who are going to work for five quid a day.

This country's future lies with high quality, high value work you won't get that by cutting the number of graduates.

In the US in particular you'll also find that many are looking for post graduate education - masters and above.

We need to
* Get more people into Universities on courses that meet the demands of industry

* Not assume we know what business wants and make dumb statements about media studies and the like

*Tackle the issues around getting graduates their first jobs ( 4 year courses with a year in industry should become the norm)

[sandyRoe]

Some of my mates served apprenticeships as fitters, turners, and the like. None of them would have worked at their trades for many years. Those style of jobs are long gone. Now, metal bashing is probably done in countries where the wages are much lower.
If we don't give young people the education to earn their living by using their brains we condemn them to the dole.
I accept that some aren't suited to further education. Gawd help them. All they have to look forward to is a life on benefits and vilification in the right-wing tabloids.

[Zeuhl]

jake

<<We are crying out for highly skilled, highly technical people. >>

and that is what our current system is producing is it?

Graduate unemployment doesn't exist then?

That's funny because two of our current temp staff graduated 2 years ago with first class honours.
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[jake-the-peg]

Nope it's turning out people who don't have real world experience.

See my third pont about a year in industry being the norm.

Interviewed loads of graduates when we took one on - some from some very prestigeous places.

Ended up taking someone from one of the ex-polys because he had relevant work experience.

Turning out a good decision so far

[Zeuhl]

Jake

step out of the employer role. As thr current debate is about how much we should charge kids to gain this supposedly essential qualification.

What are we selling them? It used to be a relatively easy step into a profession and a rewarding career - and that was for most of us free!

It seems to me that the great con is that kids are now being charged £40K, convinced they 'have' to do it and the implication is that it is still a passport to a lucrative career.

Well it may be for some, probably the 10% it always was - the brightest - the ones who get into the better unis - take the right subject.

But the con is that everyone is paying for the process - even those persuaded that media studies at the university of scunthorpe is it. And that is just dishonest.
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[jno]

doesn't matter whether you call it university or poly or vocational course, or whether the outcome is a degree or a diploma or a certificate - you train for what you want and hope you'll get a job. Sports psychology and media studies courses lead to jobs, and people taking them are hoping that the qualifications will put them ahead of other job candidates. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but nobody knows how easily they'll get the job when they start the course.

If you only want to fill nationwide vacancies then you can have it state-directed, Soviet-fashion: right, we've got enough people in media, close down all media studies courses till further notice, but open up more plumbing courses... until the nation has enough plumbers, then switch to promoting medicine instead. If you want everyone earning the maximum, then everyone will become accountants like doc's daughter. (Like medicine, there never seem to be 'too many accountants' and gluts never seem to bring their wages down.)

Or maybe people just want to study French literature regardless of whether it'll lead to a job or not. Fine by me. My degree didn't lead me to a job, neither did jno jnr's. But we're both better for having earned them.

[Zeuhl]

True jno

as long as that reality is made clear to all undergraduates before they shell out any money.

som ehow i think the educational establishment has a vested interest in packing them in regardless. Huge lecture theatres; large infrequent tutorials, lots of bums on seats - kerching
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[jake-the-peg]

This is my point - it's not the supposed "best" universities that is important now.

It's what you learn at the Universities and crucially what experience you get.

Many leavers now take unpaid internships after leaving to get that first break.

But kids aren't as dumb as you make them sound. My son's applying now. He's loking at things like reviews that rate the percentage of graduates that get jobs from various universities. He's looking at who do sandwich courses.

Our generation wanderred into universities because it was the thing to do and some people think that kids today must therefore have the same mindset as they did.

Many don't they are much much more focussed on getting a job and what the University is going to offer them.


It also seems to me that some of this criticism may come from

a) People who didn't go to University and don't see why their kids should - the good enough for me syndrome.

b) People who did go to University and think that large numbers going to University somehow devalues their achievements.

But maybe I'm just cynical

[LoftyLottie]

Simply 'Yes'

[jno]

jno jnr did the same as jake's son - and of course you have to bear in mind you may get neither the university nor the course you want (he didn't). But he went into it with open eyes and full parental support, and ended up better educated and a more well-rounded person. ((Probably better paid too, though we can never know.)

[youngmafbog]

University is much averrated. What we need is a return to some sort of apprenticship.

Take for instance my occupation in IT. I dont have a degree, barely A levels, I 'have 'contracted' for 20 years but never been out of work in 20 years. One of my daughters would like to follow in my footsteps, she is ideal in that she is actually compuerate like myself but she is now forced to do 3-4 years at Uni. What cobblers, whenever I have interviewed people from Uni they have their head stuck firmly up their arse but have no clue how do most common functions. What a joke.

On the other hand another of my daughters is studying to be a surgeon. Agreed this course is probably warrantied..

Yet another of ny daughters had a friend who wanted to go and study dance at uni. What ??. Luckily she saw sense and became a very rich stripper

[Zeuhl]

I agree kids are more vocationally minded now; which makes any 'over selling' by the establishment even worse.

I admit my view is coloured by the fact my uncle took early retirement three years ago having taught Statistics at uni for many years. His view was that the pile 'em high - shove 'em out quick attitude had devalued his ability to teach the subject properly and develop the students fully.
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[LoftyLottie]

I went to quite a high profile all girls school back in the 60's. University places were considered quite a high achievement and probably 15% of us went to Uni. I didn't. The others tended to go to tech. or vocational courses. We didn't all come from priviledged families and those that got Uni places were from all walks of life. They got to University simply by working very hard and being very clever.

I actually think now that kids are processed towards university and just expect to go. Ask some 6 and 7 year old and they will say they want to go to Uni.
Schools are measured by how many kids get into University. It has lost all meaning. The traditional universities still take the brightest kids.

Degrees to me do not measure intelligence or ability unless they are certain degrees from certain universities.

Whilst the majority of kids go into 'University' education there is no chance of state funding meeting their needs. Personally, I think higher fees is a very good idea. It will make people think!!