converting a barn without permission

[starvinartist]

I am hoping somebosy may be able to help. I have four small kids and myself and my partner have lost our home. My parents have a barn that was part converted as a workshop with water, toilet, elec and heating over ten years ago. They never got permmission but they have never asked for a certificate of lawfulness either. It would still need a lot of work (roof, windows, partition walls, better heating) but could be converted. Our problem is permssion would not be granted (green belt, monetorium etc) however what could actually be done to move us out if we moved in and did this? after four years is it legal? has anyone else done something similar? The farm is off the beaten track although one neighbour does drive past it. I am a law abiding person(normally!) however its a mother bear instinct...I've lost my job,home....this is a lifeline...my other option is a caravan in their field which I have read a lot of good advice on from this site....four kids makes this a bit harder! Thank you for anyone who has any time to advice me or just time to tell me your experiences. Thanks in advance x

[starvinartist]

Nox is retrospective planning the same as asking for a certificate of lawfullness? Thanks again everyone...I'm scared to speak to planning Tamborine but I think you may be right...thanks for the link as well x

[what..the?]

could you make only very basic changes to live in there, and just make sure no one can see you in there, or see you regularly coming and going, I don't see the problem and as spring is coming soon and the weather better,

Could you get a small caravan an park it inside the barn then it would be warmer inside and you can in the day expand out into the barn,

Regards your finances with no job or house and debts you should possibly consider bankruptcy it would be for just one year, and you can start a fresh. However it does cost £600 to make yourself bankrupt believe it or not so you may want to encourage one of you creditors to do so. If you are at all interested in bankruptcy as an option look on the cccs website they are a charity there to help
http://www.cccs.co.uk/Home.aspx

[starvinartist]

thanks' what the' I haven't felt upto facing everything until now so the debts were the next big one to face....we have debts of inexcess of 35k by just tring to live over two years on credit cards...possibly it may be best but I really hate not paying it off...i don't know I just have never not managed before and going bankrupt just seems such a big step...if that makes sense! thanks though x

[what..the?]

yes with a debt of 35k you should definitely consider it, the people who come through my door everyday who go bankrupt, they don't care or worry about it so why should you struggle on? You have nothing to be worried about, doctors, celebrity chefs, even accountants go bankrupt so don't go thinking it's a bad thing. You will struggle in your current position to keep up repayments I would think it would be a huge weight off your shoulders. If you went on benefits and went bankrupt you would keep that money, because bankruptcy doesn't mean no life your expected to rent somewhere basic, having living costs, a tv and a phone, normal day to day things.

Please look into it and talk it over with cccs, just don't go to the people off the tv like debt free direct they just want whatever money you have, their con artists.

If you definitely don't want to go bankrupt then write to the companies you owe with a list of the money you get in every month the what you spend the money on showing you don't have spare cash and they often reduce repayment levels

[starvinartist]

thanks what the this makes me feel a bit better about it....i will look into the ccs on monday.....wasn't aware you could ask companies you owe money to if they will reduce repayment charges...this would help...the interest on the cards alone is several hundred we can't afford to pay this so we just keep getting more and more late payment fees... then more debt!

[bednobs]

in your situation i would be inclined to "camp" there but not spend too much money, as 1) someone WILL see you and report you and 2) im sure as a last resort the council will have the right to just demolish it

[bushbaby_de]

Hi, I'm a planning officer who used to work in the Housing Department so can offer you some advice :)

Basically even though the barn already exists and has been partially 'converted' as you put it, using it as a dwelling is a material change of use of the land which requires planning permission. Every planning authority has its own rules on when it will allow a new dwelling, even in an existing building, and it is notoriously difficult to get such permission. Should you not receive permission, it would become immune from enforcement action after 4 years of the change of use occurring. As you will have seen from the link previously provided, you need to have been openly carrying out this use.

Once the 4 years have elapsed you could then submit all of your evidence to the Council and apply for a certificate of lawfulness. All you have to do is prove the four years. Alternatively, you can apply for a retrospective planning permission but this has to comply with the exact same rules as if you applied before you did it, so there is no benefit in waiting to make an application if you think it would comply with policy.

If you were found out and the planning officer does not believe it would receive planning permission, first they would give you a few months to voluntarily move out. If you failed to do so, they would then serve an Enforcement Notice on you giving you a formal period to move out. Failure to comply with this is a criminal offence and carries a hefty fine (up to £20000 at present). If you still fail to move out they can carry out the de-conversion works themselves and charge you for it.

[bushbaby_de]

Part 2 - living in a caravan would still need planning permission as you would be using it as a dwelling. The procedure will be exactly as I described above.

If you do go ahead without permission, consider this - if you need to contact the Council for anything, eventually they will twig that you are living somewhere without permission. How quickly this will happen depends on how the Council stores its data. Where I work, all phone calls, council tax bills, applications etc are logged to a central system to link to the person and address. It is very easy to spot someone living where they shouldn't be. If you have kids, the school would need your address, for example.

The last point that I wanted to make is that you don't have to be on benefits to get a Council House. You do not automatically get more points for being on a low income. So, provided you have not lost your house through your own fault (which the council refer to as intentionally homeless) you may find yourself on a priority housing list since you have children. However, housing of the size your family would need can be in short supply so you may have to take temporary or hostel accommodation in the meantime or stay with relatives until they can house you.

I hope this helps, let me know if you need anything else.

[CWatters]

It's 4 years from when work finishes (taking down the bales of straw was ruled part of the work in Mr Fidlers case so that's when the 4 years started). However if a "change of use" is required (eg from agricultural land to residential).the rule is 10 years.

If you are financially hard up could you afford to loose the money you invest in the house if you lost the case? If it needs a lot of work it might be worth considering a cheap house in another part of the country.

If there is an essential need for you to live on the farm for work reasons (perhaps you run a dog kennel or similar business) it might be possible to get permission under the agricultural workers justification BUT you need to make a very strong case and show that (for example) living down the road in the nearest house isn't acceptable. The business must also bring in enough income to support all the people that might live in the house. Don't under estimate how hard this route can be. Some councils grant temporary permission subject to you business plan working out for three years. You might also need seperate planning permission for the business. Some books/web sites make out that getting PP for a house this way is easy. It isn't but it can be done.

[CWatters]

It's 4 years from when work finishes (taking down the bales of straw was ruled part of the work in Mr Fidlers case so that's when the 4 years started). However if a "change of use" is required (eg from agricultural land to residential).the rule is 10 years.

If you are financially hard up could you afford to loose the money you invest in the house if you lost the case? If it needs a lot of work it might be worth considering a cheap house in another part of the country.

If there is an essential need for you to live on the farm for work reasons (perhaps you run a dog kennel or similar business) it might be possible to get permission under the agricultural workers justification BUT you need to make a very strong case and show that (for example) living down the road in the nearest house isn't acceptable from a business point of view. The business must also bring in enough income to support all the people that might live in the house. Some books/web sites make out that this is an easy way to get permission but it isn't. For example you will probably have to show the council a business plan and some councils grant temporary permission subject to the business plan working out for three years. You may also need permission for the business.

[bushbaby_de]

To add to CWatters posts, even if they agree there may be a need for someone living on site, the usual course of action is a three year permission for a caravan first, to monitor how necessary it really is to the viability of the business.