ahhhh bless!

[dove]

On the one o clock news there was a woman visiting someone in a prison. No big deal! but on being interviewed said the prisoners were uncomfortable and they were being locked up for too long.

any views? 

[AliFlump]

Oohh dear and that poor person who they mugged or did worse to must be living a life of Riley!! I think not! No sympathy with prisioners they shouldnt have committed the crime in the first place. Of course there may be people in there  who have commited a small theft or something, but as soon as you break the law you give up any human rights you might have

If you cant do the time, dont do the crime

[woofgang]

a reporter said this morning that one of the problems of prison overcrowding was caused by some facilities being closed because they were "not up to today's living standards" (my paraphrase, can't remember exact words). I bet the thousands of people, especially older people living in accommodation not up to today's standards really feel sorry for them

[jake-the-peg]

You dont give up any human rights you have when you're sent to prison.

An example I gave recently - should I be allowed to nip into Wandsworth and have a couple of guards hold a shoplifter down whilst I knife him because I'd had a bad day and needed to take it out on somebody?

No? Obviously prisoners still have at least the right to be protected from nuts like me on a bad day!

And of course they may not have done the crime at all. A lot of people in our prisons are on remand awaiting trial.

On a practical point prisoners need to be controlled by the wardens inside prisons. If they are kept in conditions where they feel they have nothing to loose wardens will not be able to control the prisons. You have to have a certain degree of carrot and stick simply for control.

I think the American constitution has a concept of "cruel and unusual punishment" which is probably a better cliche than "if you can't do the time don't do the crime"

Probably not as good a news story though

[Chessman]

They are in prison to be punished, bring back 'hard labour', I say.

[mycatis]

Actually chessman, they are not "sent to prison to be punished" they are sent to prison as punishment!

[dove]

jake-the-peg

has it not occured to you that the guilty ones,  who are sent to prison have taken away not only individual human rights, but also whole families. ?!!

[Philtaz]

Boo hoo, the poor people in prison!

Bit of a cliche I know but as the saying goes:

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[Ward-Minter]

chessman--- hard labour??? What planet or time warp do you live in man???

Kill the b4stards don't make them work!!! Its the way forward. I would love to see the schmuck that scratched my car in hell.

Are my views too strong??

[JudgeJ]

Leaving aside the ludicrous sentences recently passed on a couple of Council Tax defaulters, who were sent to prison for what is essentially a debt, it has to be borne in mind that in order to be sentenced to imprisonment these days, you have to have done something pretty bad.

Even a long string of minor offences seldom leads to imprisonment. Not many shoplifters (or thieves, as they should be properly known)  are sent to prison, even if they have a long record  of offences. Acts of violence are often dealt with by way of Community penalties when, even a few years ago, they would almost certainly result in a custodial sentence. Despite what is often claimed in the media, there are very, very few motoring offences for which you can be sent down. Sentencers are constantly urged to consider other forms of punishment and/or rehabilitation for many offences which formerly attracted a term inside.

Despite this, the prison population is at an all time high. So what's the reason?

[jake-the-peg]

Where do you get this information from JudgeJ

If you give us your sources maybe we can comment.

[jake-the-peg]

Dove,

Punishment needs to be proportionate it's one of the factors that seperates concepts of justice from the vengence of a lynchmob.

We don't hang, draw and quarter people anymore or send them to work in swamps on the other side of the world for the rest of their lives because they stole a loaf of bread.

I realise that there's a great self-righteous buzz of satisfaction that comes from the daily-mail-style rant but when Ward-minster jokes(?) kill the b4stards he means this:

http://www.rondak.org/history/lynchmob.gif

When you start thinking about criminals as something other than human beings this is where it ends up.

[mycatis]

JudgeJ said - "Despite this, the prison population is at an all time high. So what's the reason?"

Well doesn't that suggest that maybe the present scheme doesn't work!? I'm not saying for a minute that criminals shouldn't be punished, but why can't people accept that prison is the punishment? If we lock them up for 20 hours a day, how does this rehabilitate anyone? If you want to stop people commiting more crimes then, like it or not, you have to get past the "vengeance" mentality. It should be about justice not revenge.

[JudgeJ]

Well, jake, most of my information is in the public domain.

Sentencing guidelines are available for all to see. Recent reviews have downgraded the suggested “starting point” for a number of offences from custody to community penalty. The starting point for theft is a community penalty, though many shoplifters are sentenced to a small fine which they are often deemed to have paid by being held in a cell for a few hours. It is rare for even habitual serial shoplifters to be sent to prison – just spend a morning at your local magistrates’ court and you will see what I mean.

The recommended starting point for most acts of violence which do not involve weapons, wounding or actual/grievous bodily harm is a community penalty. The only motoring offences for which one can be sent to prison are: causing death by dangerous driving; dangerous driving; failing to stop/report an accident; driving whilst under the influence of drugs; and driving with excess alcohol. I have not included Driving whilst disqualified or wilful refusal to pay fines as these are penalties for ignoring earlier sentences.

The reason I raised the motoring offences issue was that the media often suggest that the law is tough on “law abiding” motorists, whilst being lenient on thieves and violent offenders.

The rate of reoffending for those sentenced to community penalties is not much lower than that for those who have served custodial sentences (about 45% and 55% - source the National Probation Service). So it could be argued that neither solution “works” particularly well.

One thing that is unarguable is that it is only a serious offence leads to prison, and whilst the miscreants are in custody they cannot commit further offences. So at least that gives society a short respite from their activities.

[jake-the-peg]

As the population of the country rises (especially in London) you expect a greater number of crimes simply because there are more people. Add this to the fact that the way we record crimes has changed so that if 3 people beat up one victim that is now 3 crimes not 1 as it used to be.

The result is it's easy to fill a whole load of tabloid inches with "rising crime" stories when the number of crimes per head may have risen much less dramatically or even not at all.

Which is why I asked about sources - Analysing such trends is complex and not best done by the editor of the Daily Mail.

What does seem clear and reinforced on this site many times is that the fear of crime seems to be rising. I have never seen any statistics on peoples fear of crime broken down by the papers they read or television they watch but I suspect it'd be quite revealing.

[Chessman]

mycatis, your right, there is a difference, but in my view, they are being punished by being sent to prison, but while there, they should be made to see that they were sent there because they broke the law, and all depending on the crime, just being sent there is really no punishment, (at least, not today), once released, they should not want to be sent back, and hopefully, not re-offend, if they are hardened criminals, how do you do that?, Also, it all depends on your point of view, if you are one of the PC brigade, then you'll be one of those that would agree with Ian Huntley being released after serving a life sentence of about thirty years, Life should mean life, and I repeat, bring back hard labour, and now I also say, bring back Corporal and Capital punishment, let prisoners know that they are being punished, make them not want to go back.

[Chessman]

One more thing,

Let the punishment fit the crime.