This is a long-standing question, em - some don't even come back to the thread. It's only civil to say thank you to people who have helped me.
The mystery to me is another one - when people have given answers and the OP has thanked them, and got all the answers, why do other posters still come along a lot later and post the answers again?!
Factor 30. thank you indeed, ive managed to get some sleep since then. The day dawns not very bright, and for those that do whole crosswords for others perhaps haven't considered that the OP might win prizes for their non efforts.