a unilateral afterlife

[fantastical]

Heaven and hell do not really exist as independent concepts - they only do in our minds. Up/down, hot/cold, ugly/beautiful, good/bad - human predispositions to always need to dichotomise dimensions. Who disagrees?

[jake-the-peg]

Interesting. One of Thomas Aquinas' "proofs" of God runs along the lines of Some people/things are clearly more beautiful than others - therefore there is an increasing scale of beauty - therefore there must be something which is the most beautiful - this is God.

Beauty does seem to be something which we do seem to recognise albeit with certain personal slants but it does seem to have a relationship to symmetry. 

I think concepts of heaven and hell are more complex wrapped up with pre-Christian notions and religons (doesn't the devil look like Pan? maybe Tatty will find us some pictures to compare) as well as the desire to dichotomise.

I do however think the tendency to do this has a strong influence on us to see things in terms of "good" and "evil" and those concepts get related to heaven and hell.

So the short answer is "kind of, maybe". 

[mimififi]

You seem pretty sure of that (especially heaven and hell)

How do you know?

[blinkyblinky]

I've always been interested in opposites/dichotomies/contrasts/whatever you want to call them, always felt they had a deep significance without being able to explain why.

life death
male female
good bad
light dark
black white
day night
dry wet
land sea
animal vegetable
inside outside
mind body
pleasure pain
:o( :o )

[blinkyblinky]

I wasn't really answering your question, was I....

It's quite possible to imagine that good people go to heaven and bad people just stop existing. So we don't need "dichotomise" in this case, do we?

[jake-the-peg]

You're already dichotomising Blinky!

Good people get one thing Bad get another.

You missed mineral in your animal-vegtable pair and air in land sea and possibly birth in birth life death if you think of it as processes rather than states.

Of course the three primary colors fit the trinity scheme rather than that of opposites as do solid liquid gas and quite a few others say yesterday-today-tomorrow.

Some of the early greek mathematicians got very tied up in all this numerology stuff and started drawing incredible theories based on it  - Absolute tripe of course but shows what can happen if you start feeling deep significance in things.

[jno]

humans have two eyes, two arms, two legs, so it comes naturally to see things in pairs. Especially the arms, where one hand always seems to work better than the other, suggesting that one of any pair may be 'better' than the other. The Christian church has been wary of this dualism, though - Manichaeism seemed to suggest that the world was created by Satan, which isn't the orthodox notion at all. Nonetheless, much Christian teaching through the ages has divided the good and the saved from the bad and the damned.

Bear in mind that heaven and hell may seem imaginary places now we have mapped the world thoroughly; but a millennium ago most of the world beyond your immediate village would have been just as mysterious and unprovable as heaven.

[jake-the-peg]

Oh I forgot to answer mimififi (althoughI don't know if it was directed at me or at fantastical)

The idea of hell seems to be Etruscian (pre roman italian culture)  in origin if you do a google search for  etruscan and hell you'll see what I mean

[jno]

this site suggests Egyptians had a hell of sorts (I can't vouch for its accuracy)

[mimififi]

I meant, just because lots of people theorise over it, how do you know it doesn't exist.  Where's the proof?  Wheres the science.  Dead people don't come back and tell you do they?

[qapmoc]

Well a quote from a discworld novel makes an interesting statement :-   There are no good or bad people, they are ALL bad,  but some are on different sides.

[jake-the-peg]

mimififi - it's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist the burden of proof is to prove that it does.

I might claim there's a place called mount Valhalla where all the gods live and fight amoungst each other.You can't prove that  Valhalla doesn't exist we have to assume it doesn't until we have a good reason to believe it does.

And as it's an extrordinary claim - one that goes against current experience - it requires extraordinary evidence.

That is to say the bar for evidence is set considerably higher when the claims require the overturning ones current understanding of how the world works.

That's why religous people don't need such strong evidence of hell - it fits in with their world view and is not such an extraordinary claim as it is to somebody  like me.

[blinkyblinky]

Jake - I didn't miss them, they were the contrasts I mentioned. For me plants and animals is a nice contrast. However don't worry, I'm not going to get all numerological about it, (even if I knew what it meant).

Not sure if heaven and nothing is an example of two things - is nothing a thing?

[mimififi]

(nothing is not a thing that is why it is no-thing, hehehe)_

But anyways Jake; your whole defence of not requiring proof sound like Ork mischief to me ;-)

I believe in heaven, and I believe in Hell as real places because I am told about them by a God who I believe to be real because of the miracles and wonders I have seen in my life.  I would document them here and submit them as evidences 1-1000 if the character number allowed.....If my God exists, then he is what he claims to be, thus his word must be true, thus if there is a God, there must be an anti-god (or satan to you and I) and they must dwell in actual places.

But, I know you won't agree and I know you are going to ignore me and just send forth a barrage of counter argument and use your guys' favourite accusation of stupidity and ignorance and 'brainwashing', but like I've said before, just because it can/can't be proved, or just because you don't believe it; doesn't mean it is not necessarily true.

One day, every knee will bow, whether in wonder and love, or in regret and fright....One day Folks.

I'm leaving these threads now, as I actually have a real life also and I'm getting a bit of RSI on my typing fingers and that mouse clickity clicking is wearing a hole in the desk.Take it easy every one, and God Bless!!!!!!

:-)