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Why are R&S theists different from the norm?
49 Answers
I have waffled on this site for many years but don’t bother any more. It seems that everything has been said many times: the reasons why religious belief is irrational; the lack of historical back-up to the Jesus story, and so on. naomi (unlike me) has studied the Koran and has had perceptive things to say about that.
But the response from the theists has never risen above the constant repetition of the same fixed, unexplained, unjustified dogma.
So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves.
And that’s the curious thing: they’re not. Away from AB R&S I correspond (yes, using envelopes and stamps, would you believe?) with many theists, professional and amateur – bishops, clergymen, religious authors, everyday believers – and with the exception of one Archbishop (who is plainly mad) all are able and willing to discuss and debate, and even concede points when they see the logic. They do not try to convert me to religion and I would not be so impertinent as to press my atheism on them.
So why this difference? Why so many reasonable theists out there when all we get on R&S are mindless bigots like ... no, I won’t name them; we all know who they are.
Any ideas anyone?
But the response from the theists has never risen above the constant repetition of the same fixed, unexplained, unjustified dogma.
So it would be tempting to assume that all theists are like programmed automata, constantly repeating their mantras and completely unable to reason for themselves.
And that’s the curious thing: they’re not. Away from AB R&S I correspond (yes, using envelopes and stamps, would you believe?) with many theists, professional and amateur – bishops, clergymen, religious authors, everyday believers – and with the exception of one Archbishop (who is plainly mad) all are able and willing to discuss and debate, and even concede points when they see the logic. They do not try to convert me to religion and I would not be so impertinent as to press my atheism on them.
So why this difference? Why so many reasonable theists out there when all we get on R&S are mindless bigots like ... no, I won’t name them; we all know who they are.
Any ideas anyone?
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Gavmacp, //So of all the obviously tedious things I mentioned you only focus on The Christmas Day thing.//
Well, I suppose we focussed on that because we're talking fundamentally about religion. However, if it interests you, I do care about the source of the things I buy. Having said that, whilst it would be wonderful if we could improve the lot of people who work in poor conditions and for little reward, if we morally condemn from our comfortable lofty heights and boycott the products they supply to us without really considering the consequences of potentially removing the workers' sole source of income, we are doing them no favours because without that employment, albeit meagre, they and their families would very likely starve. That is the reality.
//What scares me about people is that given certain circumstances quite reasonable people could be burning there neighbours house (which they may of lived beside quite happily for years). This has happened to many times and not just because of religion.//
As I said before, one wrong does not negate another. The difference between politics and its associated socio-economic structures, and religion, is that people will accept changes to the former, and indeed encourage change, whereas there can be no adjustment to the latter. Religious dogma is set in stone. Books such as the bible and the koran are considered by most of the people that adhere to them to be the word of God, and as such, those works, and the words they contain, however an individual or a religious organisation may interpret them, are untouchable and unalterable.
If you think about it, the people who strap bombs to themselves or fly planes into buildings, are not generally employed in Third World sweatshops - and the Ku Klux Klan and the Church of Latter Day Saints are both founded on Christianity, but neither can be said to have an unblemished record on human rights. Where hatred for their fellow man is concerned, the history of those two organisations puts them pretty high on the list.
Religions contradict one another enormously. Nevertheless people who avidly follow one will often vehemently defend all others, regardless of the brand and without a thought of any negative impact 'faith' brings to the world, against the argument of the atheist, simply because it is 'religion'. They will sanctimoniously condemn the actions or the doctrine of a different 'faith', but when faced with criticism from the outside, the religious are united - and that, to me, makes no sense at all. Whereas, as you say, some reports suggest that the religious are healthier in body, looking just at the examples I've given above, the claim that they are healthier in mind is, in my opinion, highly debateable.
Well, I suppose we focussed on that because we're talking fundamentally about religion. However, if it interests you, I do care about the source of the things I buy. Having said that, whilst it would be wonderful if we could improve the lot of people who work in poor conditions and for little reward, if we morally condemn from our comfortable lofty heights and boycott the products they supply to us without really considering the consequences of potentially removing the workers' sole source of income, we are doing them no favours because without that employment, albeit meagre, they and their families would very likely starve. That is the reality.
//What scares me about people is that given certain circumstances quite reasonable people could be burning there neighbours house (which they may of lived beside quite happily for years). This has happened to many times and not just because of religion.//
As I said before, one wrong does not negate another. The difference between politics and its associated socio-economic structures, and religion, is that people will accept changes to the former, and indeed encourage change, whereas there can be no adjustment to the latter. Religious dogma is set in stone. Books such as the bible and the koran are considered by most of the people that adhere to them to be the word of God, and as such, those works, and the words they contain, however an individual or a religious organisation may interpret them, are untouchable and unalterable.
If you think about it, the people who strap bombs to themselves or fly planes into buildings, are not generally employed in Third World sweatshops - and the Ku Klux Klan and the Church of Latter Day Saints are both founded on Christianity, but neither can be said to have an unblemished record on human rights. Where hatred for their fellow man is concerned, the history of those two organisations puts them pretty high on the list.
Religions contradict one another enormously. Nevertheless people who avidly follow one will often vehemently defend all others, regardless of the brand and without a thought of any negative impact 'faith' brings to the world, against the argument of the atheist, simply because it is 'religion'. They will sanctimoniously condemn the actions or the doctrine of a different 'faith', but when faced with criticism from the outside, the religious are united - and that, to me, makes no sense at all. Whereas, as you say, some reports suggest that the religious are healthier in body, looking just at the examples I've given above, the claim that they are healthier in mind is, in my opinion, highly debateable.
I think it is time to put this to bed.
I only posted as I have noticed that there appears to be a lot of religion bashing on this site. I suspect it maybe justified as some people use this site to preach their beliefs.
The stuff I said about religion having a positive effect on ones body and mind is based on a friends research. He works closely with the NHS and they are not interested in debate only evidence based research.
I could go on but will not. I have many experiences of evil acts and only 1 to 5 % had anything to do with religion. As a Scot the biggest evil that has blighted my family and nation has been alcohol.
Personally I look to the good that we can do in the world to make it better for the next generation. As Abraham Lincoln once said “If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.”
I personally would not celebrate Christmas if I had the beliefs you obviously have as it would not sit right in my head (chicken and egg thing).But I hope you have a lovely Christmas.
I think I will stay away from the Religious bit from now on
I only posted as I have noticed that there appears to be a lot of religion bashing on this site. I suspect it maybe justified as some people use this site to preach their beliefs.
The stuff I said about religion having a positive effect on ones body and mind is based on a friends research. He works closely with the NHS and they are not interested in debate only evidence based research.
I could go on but will not. I have many experiences of evil acts and only 1 to 5 % had anything to do with religion. As a Scot the biggest evil that has blighted my family and nation has been alcohol.
Personally I look to the good that we can do in the world to make it better for the next generation. As Abraham Lincoln once said “If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.”
I personally would not celebrate Christmas if I had the beliefs you obviously have as it would not sit right in my head (chicken and egg thing).But I hope you have a lovely Christmas.
I think I will stay away from the Religious bit from now on
Gavmacp, //I think it is time to put this to bed.//
Fair enough. Hard facts are often unsavoury - and that isn't meant unkindly.
//Personally I look to the good that we can do in the world to make it better for the next generation.//
That, I believe, is precisely the intention of many of the non-believers here. It is a mistake to assume that because they don't believe, they don't care.
//I personally would not celebrate Christmas if I had the beliefs you obviously have as it would not sit right in my head//
Actually, you don't know what my beliefs are. Nevertheless, I wish you a happy Christmas too - and thanks for the chat. :o)
Fair enough. Hard facts are often unsavoury - and that isn't meant unkindly.
//Personally I look to the good that we can do in the world to make it better for the next generation.//
That, I believe, is precisely the intention of many of the non-believers here. It is a mistake to assume that because they don't believe, they don't care.
//I personally would not celebrate Christmas if I had the beliefs you obviously have as it would not sit right in my head//
Actually, you don't know what my beliefs are. Nevertheless, I wish you a happy Christmas too - and thanks for the chat. :o)
Hello Chakkra,
Yes I was confused as you posted the initial thread but then appeared to disappear. I thought you were one of these people that like to light the fuse and then stand back and sees what happens.
But do not worry the thread continued in your abscence.
The thing I am interested in is why do you invest so much time i.e. writing to people, when you do not believe. This is a genuine interest not a provocative question.
For me my interest in people spiritual journey whether it is towards or away from faith it is their own personal journey that intrigues me.
Oh no I have started again!!!! I was going to leave this alone as my personal beliefs are just that I very rarely discuss this subject as it usually ends up in silly arguements which I personally do not like. But I look forward to your reply.
Regards
Gavin
Yes I was confused as you posted the initial thread but then appeared to disappear. I thought you were one of these people that like to light the fuse and then stand back and sees what happens.
But do not worry the thread continued in your abscence.
The thing I am interested in is why do you invest so much time i.e. writing to people, when you do not believe. This is a genuine interest not a provocative question.
For me my interest in people spiritual journey whether it is towards or away from faith it is their own personal journey that intrigues me.
Oh no I have started again!!!! I was going to leave this alone as my personal beliefs are just that I very rarely discuss this subject as it usually ends up in silly arguements which I personally do not like. But I look forward to your reply.
Regards
Gavin
I think the best answers to my question came from MIB and NAOMI right at the beginning, and from ANKOU later on. Thanks. To the other things:
ELDERMAN, if we knew what religion you subscribe to we would know how much, if any, it derives from paganism. Christianity, for example, is heavily based on the pagan god-man story.
SANDYROE, how can you be bigoted and not mindless? In another post you said you accepted the idiotic and disgusting idea of transubstantiation, entirely invented by the RC Church. Mindless enough for me.
KEYPLUS: Yes, I won my battle with Boots plc, who eventually agreed not to sell quack magnetic bracelets from any of their stores after present stocks run out.
NAOMI, Still keeping up the good work, I see. Where you get your patience from I cannot imagine, but you wrote a good deal of good sense as usual.
GAVMACP: First of all, I do not try to convert people. Secondly, as naomi says, to point out the irrationality of religious belief does not mean that one has no interest in it. And (to answer your question) the reason I have an interest is that religion, unlike astrology, flat-earthism or leyline-ism, is widespread, with millions of people who wouldn't otherwise believe in things which make no sense and for which there is not a grain of evidence, embrace the idea of their particular god with enthusiasm. And this rejection of reason spreads into other areas of their minds with sometimes dire effects of the sort that JOMIFL and naomi listed so graphically. Such misuse of the intellect that evolution has given us is surely unhealthy, yet people do it. That's what fascinates me.
Anyway, thank you all for your time and patience.
ELDERMAN, if we knew what religion you subscribe to we would know how much, if any, it derives from paganism. Christianity, for example, is heavily based on the pagan god-man story.
SANDYROE, how can you be bigoted and not mindless? In another post you said you accepted the idiotic and disgusting idea of transubstantiation, entirely invented by the RC Church. Mindless enough for me.
KEYPLUS: Yes, I won my battle with Boots plc, who eventually agreed not to sell quack magnetic bracelets from any of their stores after present stocks run out.
NAOMI, Still keeping up the good work, I see. Where you get your patience from I cannot imagine, but you wrote a good deal of good sense as usual.
GAVMACP: First of all, I do not try to convert people. Secondly, as naomi says, to point out the irrationality of religious belief does not mean that one has no interest in it. And (to answer your question) the reason I have an interest is that religion, unlike astrology, flat-earthism or leyline-ism, is widespread, with millions of people who wouldn't otherwise believe in things which make no sense and for which there is not a grain of evidence, embrace the idea of their particular god with enthusiasm. And this rejection of reason spreads into other areas of their minds with sometimes dire effects of the sort that JOMIFL and naomi listed so graphically. Such misuse of the intellect that evolution has given us is surely unhealthy, yet people do it. That's what fascinates me.
Anyway, thank you all for your time and patience.
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