Punctuation 2: full stop

[Squirrel]

In what place does the full stop appear when there are brackets or inverted commas at the end of a sentence? Also, do question marks and such always end a sentence in the same way, and does ''' prompt a capital letter immediately after itself?

[Quizmonster]

If the whole sentence is in brackets, then 'yes', there will be a full stop at its end and within the brackets. If, however, the bracketed part is just an element that happens to have occurred at the end of a sentence, then the full stop comes outside the brackets. That's because the stop refers to the whole sentence and not just the bit in brackets.

Both question marks and exclamation marks automatically end a sentence normally, simply because they actually contain a full stop within them. I've underlined 'normally', because writers sometimes put questions/exclamations inside other sentences for effect. Here's an example. "I met Sheila the other day and - my God! - you wouldn't believe the state of her make-up." The exclamation in the middle is complete in itself, but - since it is in parenthesis - it does not round off the whole sentence. Actually, I wouldn't even give the 'm' in 'my' a capital letter for that very reason.

Re your last point, if the original quote had a capital and is complete rather than just a sentence-fragment as already described, then yes, a capital is used after the opening..."... In my last two responses, I've shown, however, where this might not apply. (I hope!)

As a general rule, punctuation is only put within a quote if it is actually contained in the original. For example, I might want to ask: "When did President Kennedy say: 'Ich bin ein Berliner'?" Note that the question-mark comes outside the single inverted commas. That's because Kennedy did not put it as a question...the question is mine and hence it goes within the double inverted commas.

[Squirrel]

Perfect answer, but a lot for me to take in! Just to make sure I understood you, would any of the following be wrong?

(This is just a sentence for the sake of a sentence.) Squirrel-on-squirrel violence has risen sharply in recent months; - some say due to the criminal activities of the so-called "Rodent Mafia". Mavis Rainworth, an elderly squirrel who lives in a red-only area, remarked earlier today, "The sooner those grey freaks clear out, the better. At first they were just taking the best trees, making a little noise when they got drunk, but just last week I had to have all my locks changed when one of the lousy tree-rats stole my purse...'What next?' is what I want to know".

[Quizmonster]

The first sentence, down to 'Mafia' is reasonably OK, except for the semi-colon/dash after 'months'. That's definitely a no-no...a comma would do just fine there. In addition, I personally would have used single inverted commas rather than doubles around 'Rodent Mafia'. Whichever, you were perfectly correct to put the full stop outside them.

In the second sentence, the..., "... is correct, as per your old teacher's instructions.

I'm not sure why you needed the ...construction near the end rather than a simple full stop, but there's nothing actually wrong with it...I often do it myself! The final full stop should come within the double inverted commas, since it concludes Mavis's speech and that's what the doubles are enclosing. In other words, it belongs inside. (See my earlier answer.)

In conclusion, remember the old saying: "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." Once you know them, you can 'play' with them to your heart's content. We do still have what I consider to be inalienable 'rules' in punctuation, but lots of them are going by the board nowadays. Cheers

[Squirrel]

Thanks again, but where I have the " symbol at the end of a sentence, do I put the full stop after it only if the quotation began with a capital letter?

(I will stop bothering you one day, honestly. Next time i forget what you've said, I'll look up examples from a book.)

[Quizmonster]

I'm a trifle confused this time as to your exact point, S! There must be a full stop - or ? or ! with their inbuilt full stops - at the end of every sentence.

If the quotation you're using ends your sentence and the original had a full stop at that point, then put your full stop inside the inverted commas. It then acts as the full stop for both the quote and your sentence. If the original had no full stop at that point and you are simply ending your own sentence, then put the full stop outside the inverted commas around the quote.

PS If you think my answers are worth remembering, you can highlight each in turn and press Ctrl+P. That'll print them out and you can then stick them away in a folder. I'm not asking you to do this, you understand...just responding to your point about forgetting!

[Squirrel]

Thanks for that tip. There are often times when I don't know how to split up two parts of a sentence, or a load of other things, but now I can use this page as a handy reference.

[Quizmonster]

Dear Einstein/Squirrel...I did say the semi-colon/dash wouldn't do and that a comma should be used there. I certainly didn't suggest that comma/dash was what was required! My apologies if that's how it sounded.

[Squirrel]

I was just looking for an excuse to use that; - I think it looks neat.

[Quizmonster]

I guess you like it, S, because it resembles one of those awful text-messaging - sorry, 'txt-msgg' - symbols which I hate! That's the one that supposedly looks, albeit lopsidedly, like a winking, smiley face

;-)

I did say earlier that you could break the 'rules' if you wanted to, but I'm afraid that ;- is overkill in the pause-marker stakes!

[Squirrel]

Now you mention it, it does look a bit like a face, although I am still not tempted to get one of "those damn phones". What I try to do is think, "Right, I want to split the sentence into two related, but distinct, parts, so put a semicolon. The second part explains or adds to the first part, so put a dash...or would that mean I delete the semicolon? This is confusing me now..." No need to answer on this page ' I'll make a new question.

[Quizmonster]

Seeing that I'm here, anyway, I might just as well answer it here. The point is that it is never necessary to use more than one 'stop' or 'pause' punctuation mark....ie ,/;/:/./-/.../?/!...(I think that's all of them!) with the occasional exception of :- used to introduce a list.

Bearing in mind what I said earlier about punctuation re quotes, you sometimes find a quote 'built into' and ending a sentence. If the quote is a question, you end it with a question mark inside the quote-marks. Now, you do not have to put a full stop outside the quote-marks to show the end of the sentence as a whole, even though the whole sentence isn't, in itself, a question.

Here's what I mean. Imagine you were writing to John Hughes, an ex-schoolmate, about having met one of your old teachers. (To avoid confusion, I won't use opening quote-marks for the whole sentence, though one normally would in these circumstances. Here goes...

As I was leaving, the last thing Old Smithie said was, "Have you heard from John Hughes lately?"

Now, that whole thing is a statement, though the quoted part is a question. Nevertheless, you should not put a further full stop outside the quotes to end the statement. Only one 'stopper' is required and that is contained in the question mark.

Thus, it can never - I regret to have to tell you - be necessary to use your ,- anywhere in a sentence.

[Squirrel]

That must be one of the clearest explanations ever given; hopefully, slowly, I'll catch on. (It was ; - and not , - by the way, but point still taken.)