Quizzes & Puzzles35 mins ago
St Pauls Eviction Tonight!!!!
Why did it take so long?
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Krom, //The Occupy movement is, by and large, not trying to change any laws, it's not trying to set up something new, and it's not trying to come up with a new structure.//
//Regarding protest objectives, it's no more idealistic to think that you can try to change things by encouraging a critique of political culture than it is to simply think that if you can just change the law then that's all you need to do to make change happen.//
Oh, so they do want to make changes then? Thank you.
Whatever they want, I do not agree with their methods. Despite all the banging on about bankers’ bonuses and the ills of capitalism, I still don’t know what their ultimate goal is because, as far as I can tell, they haven’t broadcast it. However, I suspect there are people within that organisation whose ambition is to see an end to the capitalist system and that worries me because the alternative really isn’t something we should wish to aspire to.
//Regarding protest objectives, it's no more idealistic to think that you can try to change things by encouraging a critique of political culture than it is to simply think that if you can just change the law then that's all you need to do to make change happen.//
Oh, so they do want to make changes then? Thank you.
Whatever they want, I do not agree with their methods. Despite all the banging on about bankers’ bonuses and the ills of capitalism, I still don’t know what their ultimate goal is because, as far as I can tell, they haven’t broadcast it. However, I suspect there are people within that organisation whose ambition is to see an end to the capitalist system and that worries me because the alternative really isn’t something we should wish to aspire to.
There lies the problem naomi, we have not been told what their ultimate aim is so you ask the question why all the secrecy - will we not like the alternative? Will it be too late when these misguided people cause the collapse of countries financial sytems, because this is what they are doing - as George Soros (whose fingerprints are all over this protest) did to this country and made a lot of money doing so.
"Oh, so they do want to make changes then?"
Yep. Your first quote from me does not say that they don't - it says that the kind of change they're trying to instigate is not structural or legal. Which historically is what most protests (whether successful or not) have tried to do and I imagine what preceding generations are used to expecting from them.
"I still don’t know what their ultimate goal is because, as far as I can tell, they haven’t broadcast it."
That's because there isn't one narrow and specific goal that they have to broadcast. The Occupy movement isn't one homogenous organisation with a clearly dictated goal. What the various Occupiers have in common, as I've tried to explain to you, is a desire to target ordinary people and invite them to critique the socioeconomic system they live under. That's the closest thing they have to a goal. They do not all do this from the same angle - it varies depending on where you look. The broad theme that unites them is that they are extremely critical of capitalism, and wish to act on that demand by challenging people to think and criticising political culture rather than targeting particular laws or structures like other protest movements do. The reason for that is that those laws and structures are part and parcel of what they want to critique.
"However, I suspect there are people within that organisation whose ambition is to see an end to the capitalist system and that worries me because the alternative really isn’t something we should wish to aspire to."
You're right - there very likely are people among the Occupiers who wish to see an end to capitalism. And, like you, I'd tend to disagree with them (though probably not for the same reasons - but that's a whole other debate). But that isn't a valid reason for dismissing the entirety of the movement, or for running away from engaging with it. In my opinion, the former is arrogant and the latter is cowardly.
Yep. Your first quote from me does not say that they don't - it says that the kind of change they're trying to instigate is not structural or legal. Which historically is what most protests (whether successful or not) have tried to do and I imagine what preceding generations are used to expecting from them.
"I still don’t know what their ultimate goal is because, as far as I can tell, they haven’t broadcast it."
That's because there isn't one narrow and specific goal that they have to broadcast. The Occupy movement isn't one homogenous organisation with a clearly dictated goal. What the various Occupiers have in common, as I've tried to explain to you, is a desire to target ordinary people and invite them to critique the socioeconomic system they live under. That's the closest thing they have to a goal. They do not all do this from the same angle - it varies depending on where you look. The broad theme that unites them is that they are extremely critical of capitalism, and wish to act on that demand by challenging people to think and criticising political culture rather than targeting particular laws or structures like other protest movements do. The reason for that is that those laws and structures are part and parcel of what they want to critique.
"However, I suspect there are people within that organisation whose ambition is to see an end to the capitalist system and that worries me because the alternative really isn’t something we should wish to aspire to."
You're right - there very likely are people among the Occupiers who wish to see an end to capitalism. And, like you, I'd tend to disagree with them (though probably not for the same reasons - but that's a whole other debate). But that isn't a valid reason for dismissing the entirety of the movement, or for running away from engaging with it. In my opinion, the former is arrogant and the latter is cowardly.
Krom, So in your opinion I’ve dismissed an invitation to think on facile grounds, which makes me an intellectual coward, I’ve looked down my nose at the way they are dressed and at how clean they are (neither of which I’ve mentioned), I’m running away from engaging with it and that makes me arrogant and cowardly – and yet I’m engaging in debate about it. Strange. Your attitude towards me today demeans you – and, frankly, it surprises me. Any more insults?
Hmmm. I had typed out a more elaborate response on which of those claims I thought were justified and which weren't - but after reading back, you're right. I've been too strong on irrelevant ad hominem attacks in this thread. I made assumptions about your argument based on other people I've encountered - a common mistake on AB, but not an excusable one. I apologise.
Even with that admission, however, it does not undermine the central points I've made about Occupy in my previous posts.
Even with that admission, however, it does not undermine the central points I've made about Occupy in my previous posts.
