Listener 4847 Demeaning By Lionheart
Crosswords3 mins ago
Question re nursing home fees.
My father passed away just over 3 months ago and my mother has been in hospital for nearly 4 months with dementia.
They have just found a home which will take her and she will get NHS funding after I pressed for it.
My parents home is only expected to fetch about £120,000 and she has little other money.
As I was the executor I applied for probate and the house is now half in my name and half in my mothers name.
As Mum will not recover I am thinking about selling the house.
I have now been advised by the Social Worker as I was not a half owner when my mother went into hospital if for any reason she does not qualify for NHS funding in the future if her share of the proceeds are fully used for care fees then I will have to use my share of the proceeds as well.
She has said even though my father's half of the house was willed to me my mother could have stopped me having it.
I am just wandering if anybody knows the legal position.
Bill
They have just found a home which will take her and she will get NHS funding after I pressed for it.
My parents home is only expected to fetch about £120,000 and she has little other money.
As I was the executor I applied for probate and the house is now half in my name and half in my mothers name.
As Mum will not recover I am thinking about selling the house.
I have now been advised by the Social Worker as I was not a half owner when my mother went into hospital if for any reason she does not qualify for NHS funding in the future if her share of the proceeds are fully used for care fees then I will have to use my share of the proceeds as well.
She has said even though my father's half of the house was willed to me my mother could have stopped me having it.
I am just wandering if anybody knows the legal position.
Bill
Answers
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Hi Bill
I am sorry about your situation. Your father passing away while your mother was in hospital has made a sad situation much worse.
The council can not say the assetts were being disposed of to avoid fees as Bill's fathers half of the house did not belong to the mother. I am assuming the parents were Tennants in Common.
As the value of the estate is low I am just wandering if the council may be saying inadequate provision was made for the mother and they may try to use the Family Inheritance Act 1975 to apply for provision from the estate.
I know Bill's mother would normally have apply for the provision but she can not do this if she has dementia.
With regard to the Bill acting as executor Bill has just distributed the estate in accordance with the terms of the will so he has not done anything wrong.
I presume Bill has Power of Attorney for his mother which will allow him to sell the house.
This case is unusual so I think a solicitor will have to be consulted.
I am sorry about your situation. Your father passing away while your mother was in hospital has made a sad situation much worse.
The council can not say the assetts were being disposed of to avoid fees as Bill's fathers half of the house did not belong to the mother. I am assuming the parents were Tennants in Common.
As the value of the estate is low I am just wandering if the council may be saying inadequate provision was made for the mother and they may try to use the Family Inheritance Act 1975 to apply for provision from the estate.
I know Bill's mother would normally have apply for the provision but she can not do this if she has dementia.
With regard to the Bill acting as executor Bill has just distributed the estate in accordance with the terms of the will so he has not done anything wrong.
I presume Bill has Power of Attorney for his mother which will allow him to sell the house.
This case is unusual so I think a solicitor will have to be consulted.
Hi Bill
You may wish to see a solicitor to find out what the situation is with regard to your share of the property but as your mother is getting NHS funding at present no money will be required for now so I would not spend a massive amount on a solicitor at this stage.
It would not surprise me when she has another assessment they may say it is not an NHS funding case. If this happens threaten them with a solicitor and I know of a few cases where NHS funding has been granted before the person got to the solicitor.
I do not like to have to say this but unfortunately your mother could pass away before the next assessment so spending money on a solicitor at this stage could be futile.
You may wish to see a solicitor to find out what the situation is with regard to your share of the property but as your mother is getting NHS funding at present no money will be required for now so I would not spend a massive amount on a solicitor at this stage.
It would not surprise me when she has another assessment they may say it is not an NHS funding case. If this happens threaten them with a solicitor and I know of a few cases where NHS funding has been granted before the person got to the solicitor.
I do not like to have to say this but unfortunately your mother could pass away before the next assessment so spending money on a solicitor at this stage could be futile.
Hi
Thank you for your advice.
I am going to to try the Citizans Advice Bureau and the Age Concern Advice line but I suspect they will advise me to consult a solicitor as this case is probably unusual.
I noticed a solicitor's advert today advertising a half hours consultation for £20 and I am thinking of taking this up if the above does not work. Two of their specialities are inheritance and care home fees.
I have just retired and really I would like to know if it would be OK to invest my £60,000 inheritance for 3 years when the house is sold.
I have noticed 3% after tax interest can be obtained which will give me £1,800 interest per year.
If I have to keep the money totally liquid it will give me almost no interest.
Bill
Thank you for your advice.
I am going to to try the Citizans Advice Bureau and the Age Concern Advice line but I suspect they will advise me to consult a solicitor as this case is probably unusual.
I noticed a solicitor's advert today advertising a half hours consultation for £20 and I am thinking of taking this up if the above does not work. Two of their specialities are inheritance and care home fees.
I have just retired and really I would like to know if it would be OK to invest my £60,000 inheritance for 3 years when the house is sold.
I have noticed 3% after tax interest can be obtained which will give me £1,800 interest per year.
If I have to keep the money totally liquid it will give me almost no interest.
Bill
-- answer removed --
There is one principle that is worth remembering. The LA cannot take into accounts assets not beneficially owned by the patient and not given away BY the patient to deprive themselves of assets.
Assuming they were tenants in common, Bill's mum only owned one half of the house. Bill's dad the other. Irrespective of when Bill's mum went into hospital, Bill's dad was the owner of half share and it passed to his executors upon his death. It matters not where Bill's mum lived and the SW is trying it on. Given that Bill's mum only owns one half, it is almost impossible to sell a half share of a house (see the CRAG guidance). If Bill were to sell the house, then mum's half share would be taken into account (although this sounds like an NHS funding case anyway).
I wouldn't worry about a solicitor unless the LA up the ante. The SW is wrong. They cannot argue that Bill or Bill's father have deprived themselves of assets since they are not the patient.
I accept that there is the possibility of a claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependents) Act 1975 but view this as extremely unlikely. There are two practical points to be borne in mind. Firstly, claim has to be brought 6 months from Grant of Probate and secondly, I really can't see the Official Solicitor taking this one on. In the unlikely event that the Council have a LPA for mum, they would have to say that they would be responsible for her legal costs. I simply don't see that happening.
Assuming they were tenants in common, Bill's mum only owned one half of the house. Bill's dad the other. Irrespective of when Bill's mum went into hospital, Bill's dad was the owner of half share and it passed to his executors upon his death. It matters not where Bill's mum lived and the SW is trying it on. Given that Bill's mum only owns one half, it is almost impossible to sell a half share of a house (see the CRAG guidance). If Bill were to sell the house, then mum's half share would be taken into account (although this sounds like an NHS funding case anyway).
I wouldn't worry about a solicitor unless the LA up the ante. The SW is wrong. They cannot argue that Bill or Bill's father have deprived themselves of assets since they are not the patient.
I accept that there is the possibility of a claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependents) Act 1975 but view this as extremely unlikely. There are two practical points to be borne in mind. Firstly, claim has to be brought 6 months from Grant of Probate and secondly, I really can't see the Official Solicitor taking this one on. In the unlikely event that the Council have a LPA for mum, they would have to say that they would be responsible for her legal costs. I simply don't see that happening.
Hi Kaypar / Barmaid
My parents were tennants in common and the will was made in 1989. I have the LPA for my mother.
Another thought my wife and myself are having is to let our daughter occupy the house and possibly gift the house to her after my mother passes away. It would be a good starter home for her mortgage free.
This means the house would not be sold.
I realise council tax / electric / gas will have to be paid for.
Every medic has said they would be surprised if my mother will be alive this time next year.
Our daughter is a teacher in her second year and is living with us at present. I think she will get a better house in a shortish time but I think it could be worthwhile her living in it to secure £60,000.
For your information my father's death was unexpected.
It was a heart problem and the initial tests were OK.
Dad then said he was hungry and I went to get him a sandwich, came back 10 minutes later and found he had passed away. The doctor said this was OK.
Oddly enough it was a young nurse who had examined him and the post mortum did state Dad's condition would have not shown up and the ECG was examined.
I saw her walking with another nurse a few days later and coming across me did upset her but I did help to console her.
Dad was 92.
Bill
My parents were tennants in common and the will was made in 1989. I have the LPA for my mother.
Another thought my wife and myself are having is to let our daughter occupy the house and possibly gift the house to her after my mother passes away. It would be a good starter home for her mortgage free.
This means the house would not be sold.
I realise council tax / electric / gas will have to be paid for.
Every medic has said they would be surprised if my mother will be alive this time next year.
Our daughter is a teacher in her second year and is living with us at present. I think she will get a better house in a shortish time but I think it could be worthwhile her living in it to secure £60,000.
For your information my father's death was unexpected.
It was a heart problem and the initial tests were OK.
Dad then said he was hungry and I went to get him a sandwich, came back 10 minutes later and found he had passed away. The doctor said this was OK.
Oddly enough it was a young nurse who had examined him and the post mortum did state Dad's condition would have not shown up and the ECG was examined.
I saw her walking with another nurse a few days later and coming across me did upset her but I did help to console her.
Dad was 92.
Bill
The way to achieve that (for which you will need legal advice, don't take this as legal advice, even though I have a fair idea of what I am talking about), is to do a Deed of Variation to your father's Will, leaving his share of the house to your daughter. Thus from the date of your father's death, your daughter ostensibly becomes the owner of one half. If she moves in, the house can't then be sold. A DofV has to be done within 2 years of death.
(A DofV effectively re-writes the Will and takes effect as if your father had left her the house in the Will).
(A DofV effectively re-writes the Will and takes effect as if your father had left her the house in the Will).
I am so sorry to hear about your father passing away but I think at least you have peace of mind he went quickly, he was hungry you went for the sandwich but all too late, and now your mother, your head must be all over the place x
You have my deepest sympathy regarding your situation and I have no idea regarding legal stuff but as a carer for 15 years my thoughts are with and your mother and family x
You have my deepest sympathy regarding your situation and I have no idea regarding legal stuff but as a carer for 15 years my thoughts are with and your mother and family x
-- answer removed --
Hi Bill
If you wish to pass the house over to your daughter I would act reasonably quickly ( certainly within the Deed of Variation time ) as capial gains tax could be payable on a second home if you kept it in your name.
I think there are risks whatever you do. Our daughter met a man on holiday in Bournemouth who had a nice fully paid for house 18 miles from where we live and was married just over a year later.
Obviously she would not want to have kept a 2 up 2 down type house which your parents house sounds like.
My view however is you have to do what is best under your present / known future circumstances and just face the situation if a change happens.
If you wish to pass the house over to your daughter I would act reasonably quickly ( certainly within the Deed of Variation time ) as capial gains tax could be payable on a second home if you kept it in your name.
I think there are risks whatever you do. Our daughter met a man on holiday in Bournemouth who had a nice fully paid for house 18 miles from where we live and was married just over a year later.
Obviously she would not want to have kept a 2 up 2 down type house which your parents house sounds like.
My view however is you have to do what is best under your present / known future circumstances and just face the situation if a change happens.
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