panto

[david21]

Is pontomime unique to the uk if so do visitors to the uk understand the strange customes(girls playing boys etc) or do they have thier own versions

[nfn]

my friend came over for Christmas from South Africa a few years ago and I took her to a panto. She had heard of them and apparently they have ever so slightly similar things over there, but nothing like the scale of ours. Theirs are more like Christmas reviews. She absolutely loved it and joined in from start to finish (including singing wiggly woo with all the actions)!

[Quizmonster]

It was very quiet in my local yesterday evening, so, whilst waiting for friends, I found myself skimming through the pub's copy of the 'Sun'...or it might have been the 'Mirror'. In it - amidst the dross - there was quite a long and interesting article all about the history of pantomime. I'm sure you will still be able to get hold of a copy from a friend, neighbour or whoever.
Basically, it originated in Italy and came to Britain via France. So, although we think of it as a purely British activity, it is not.

[jno]

same as opera and Punch and Judy then, QM? Did the article say if the elements david mentioned - cross-dressing and so on - were in the Italian version?

I'd say the only native British entertainment was Morris dancing, if I didn't know it was originally Moorish dancing...

[Quizmonster]

I can't recall specific details of the article, J, but I understand that a male actor playing the 'dame' and a female playing the 'boy' are purely 20th century, British developments. (There is also the point that, in former times, there were no female actors.) So, too, is the inclusion of topical jokes, pantomime animals etc.
It may well, therefore, be - as David suggests - that Italians, say, watching a panto in London might be utterly confused and see little connection with their own country's original entertainment. To be honest, I have no idea whether such entertainment even exists in Italy nowadays!

[RogK]

It's been tried in Canada and Australia - depending probably on an ex-pat audience. I don't think it was hugely successful.

[Narolines]

Pantomime as we now know it is a VERY distant relation of the Italian Commedia dell'Arte of the 16th/17th centuries, and to all intents and purposes it is indeed uniquely British. Probably the most authentic survival of the Italian original is the Harlequinade theatre which is performed in the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen, though there are puppet survivals in more or less debased forms all over Europe - notably of course our own Punch and Judy.

And jno, I hoped that old canard had been laid to rest - Morris dancing is not only uniquely British, it is uniquely English, and the derivation of the name is something of a mystery; what it is not is anything at all to do with John of Gaunt or North African dances - unlike the Moresco, which was a court dance composed in imitation of what was imagined to be an Arab or Persian dance. Nowt to do wi' morris, however.......

[LordyGeordie]

I was once talking to the chap who runs the biggest theatre company in the country specialising in pantomime and asked him this question.

he said in its present form it is pretty much unique to britain. as has been said his company has staged productions in areas with a lot of ex-pats and it's gone down reasonably well. surprisingly, he said it's very popular in hong kong where as well as there being a lot of ex-pats, the locals love it as well. he thinks its because it's very simialr to chinese traditional theatre in many ways. apparently there's a lot of cross-dressing in chinese theatre and the acting style is very similar as well, exaggerated emotions, slapstick, audience participation etc

[Quizmonster]

Long may Morris dancing remain uniquely English! Personally, I've always felt that English rugby union teams facing the All Blacks should do a Morris dance immediately after their opponents finish the haka. The tinkling bells and fluttering hankies would be really intimidating, don't you think?
As best I recall, one of the very early 'Black Adder' programmes involved Edmund in arranging the entertainment for his brother's wedding. When he asked a helper what had been organised so far, the latter mentioned Morris dancing. "What? In this day and age!" shrieked Blackadder...and this was meant to be during the 14th century or thereabouts.

[jno]

interesting, narolines, can you point me to any websites with any info on this?

(PS I believe flamenco is Spanish for Flemish... so the dance is presumably Belgian in origin... but of course I could be wrong).

Sorry david, a bit off subject here.

[Quizmonster]

Strangely enough, the two oldest recorded uses of the word 'morris' in English are both from the early 16th century Scottish poets, Douglas and Dunbar! So, certainly the Jocks were writing about the dance before the English ever were. Makes one wonder about the dance's 'uniqueness' to south of the border.

[kayakcat]

There are a number of potential predecessors to the British panto. The Comedia d'el Arte from Italy is the most notable (all 'our' familiar characters are there) - it dates back to at least the 1600's. There are also a lot of familiar scenarios and characters in the Japanese Kibuki theatre - certainly over a thousand years old.

[Narolines]

Sorry, jno, I'm afraid I can't; I spent a lot of time researching both the history of theatre and English traditional customs when I was doing my English degree years & years ago; I could probably furnish you with a comprehensive bibliography, but as much of the material is out of print and in obscure libraries that probably wouldn't help much!

And according to my sources, the earliest written reference to morris is in an English parish church account book of 1489, which records "4d for belles for the morres dauncers". Incidentally, the word "morris" or "morrice" was applied to all kinds of traditional or working-class entertainments - not only dancing, but sports, plays, feasts; any kind of a lower-class knees-up. Not to mention a range of working-class cars....!

[Quizmonster]

Narolines, I'd certainly suggest that you contact the editors of The Oxford English Dictionary with your information. The scholars there have clearly not found or been able to confirm the parish record book entry you refer to. Fame clearly awaits you if you can give them the necessary information and they can check its accuracy. Were that to happen, your material would doubtless be incorporated in the next edition of that illustrious publication.
Their earliest recorded instance dates back only to 1512 and it was Scottish, too!
Good luck!

[Quizmonster]

I should have added above that the 1512 reference reads"...servitours that dansit ane moris to the King", so it was definitely a dance rather than any other form of simple entertainment on that occasion.

[jno]

thanks Narolines, and I second QM's suggestion about the OED

[Narolines]

Thanks QM - I might actually do that! All I have to do is sift through all the research material from 1968 until I find it...........I remember the date because it's very close to the date of the window in Betley parish church that's generally thought to be the earliest representation of morris dancers, and the quotation because I've used it as a title for a piece of reseach of my own, but I can't recall exactly which parish accounts it was at this distance! And the info about "morris/morrice" being attached to other forms of entertainment came from a fairly recent history of south midland morris dancing by a well-respected social historian and acknowledged expert in the history of popular entertainments in the Cotswolds..