Freezing water

[BigB]

I put a plastic bottle of mineral water in the freezer in summer to cool it down. I cant remember how long it was in there for but when i went to get it i opened the door and could see the water still in liquid form. I grabbed the bottle and it immediatly froze solid. why did it do this only when i held it. Do i have magical powers to freeze water with my hands? My girlfriend says i can be cold sometimes but this is going a bit far.

[mrbatfink]

Not an expert, and have been wrong many times on here but:

water under pressure needs to be colder than 0 to freeze (i think). If by removing the bottle from the freezer you removed some pressure (something resting on bottle, possibly allowed bottle to expand a bit) it is then possible for the water to freeze... Never seen it happen, but in my limited mind it may just be possible.

[mrbatfink]

So: if the water is at -4, under pressure in a bottle in the freezer (i would say if you left it much longer in the freezer the bottle would crack). You grab bottle and the heat from your hand and the air allows the bottle to expand a fraction...that little release of pressure would then allow water to freeze because it is still below 0....Interesting

[BigB]

Thanks Batfink, your answer sounds feasible but i seem to remember holding the bottle quite tightly which, i would of thought would increase the internal pressure thus lowering the freezing temp of the bottle. Was a strange thing when it happened and my girfriend an i just looked at each other for a few mins unable to actually belive what we just saw.

[mrbatfink]

Then it is one of the following reasons:

1: I would think the pressures involved would be considerable and the heat from your hand would cause more expansion than the pressure you could appy.

2: You should go and have your name legally changed to Ice Man.

3: I am not smart enough to answer your question.

I am sure CT will appear and give a reasonable answer sooner or later, he seems like an inteligent chap.

[Space]

mrbatfink, you are saying that by heating the bottle, it expands and therefore pressure decreases ...
what is the missing link between "heating" and "expanding" ? could that be an increase in pressure, by any chance?

Now, the answer to the question:
supercooling
Look up that word in google or wikipedia.

[Clanad]

If I may... water may be supercooled several degrees below the freezing point if a number of conditions exist. A primary prerequisite is that the water be as pure as possible... that is, free from dust, undissolved minerals or other particles that would form the nucleation sites for crystal formation. This was probably true with BigB's sample since a lot of 'mineral water' is actually distilled water. Secondly, the water must be undisturbed, also true in this example. Thirdly, the water needs to be agitated to assist in forming crystals. This also, apparently, occurred. In this scenario, it's possible that water could be cooled to nearly 10 degrees F below freezing before crystalization would occur. Most home freezers maintain a temperature around 28 to 30 degrees F, entirely within the range required for the observed phenomena.
In aviation, my profession for many years, airframe icing in flight is always a concern. There are several types of icing, but the most insidious is the formation of 'clear ice'. This occurs when supercooled small water droplets are suspended in cloud formations. The aircraft flies through them and when they are struck by the aircraft, immediately freeze or, worse, flow back along the wing for a short distance and freeze, forming an ice "dam". Fortunately, since the water is in a liquid state it does "paint" on radar whereas snow does not...

[mrbatfink]

Space your answer is none to clear to me....

The water cannot freeze till the pressure is off of it. if you increase pressure it cannot freeze. Therefor there must be a decrease of pressure within the bottle.

if we are on about the pressure to expand the bottle it is already there in the form of the water trying to freeze. The bottle tries to shrink as it cools, so naturally it expands as it warms.. decreasing the pressure on the water.

[Space]

please mrbatfink do a bit of research before writing "there must be". You are making a hypothesis, nothing more, you even admitted yourself that you couldn't answer the question.

Did you find the wikipedia definition unclear?
What about this page
http://f0rked.com/articles/supercooling
? It's easy to search on the internet when you know what keyword to look for.
Good job Clanad is here and loves to write it all himself in his own words...

[BigB]

Thanks Guys

The answer has got to be supercooling and the agitation when i removed the bottle from the drawer would have caused the change in state.

Thanks for all your answers.

[mrbatfink]

I see now my mistake.

Could not read you link space as i am at work and use IE which the site does not support, but i did look elsewhere. My comment that water cannot freeze under certain pressures is correct, water expands when it freezes if it cannot expand it cannot freeze.

My mistake would be assuming there was enough pressure to stop freezing at 0C in the 1st place.

cheers guys

[Space]

That link does work with IE, you just have to scroll down to the bottom of the page...
They have nice videos

[Clanad]

'S OK, EDDIE51... I'd like to think great minds running, etc., etc.,

[CT]

OK, how about this for a theory. In your freezer, the air will contract after you've opened the door to put something in, then closed it. Therefore the bottle will have less pressure on the outside so it expands. The air pressure on the water in the bottle is now greater than outside the freezer. The water cools under pressure to about 0 degrees C. In the atmosphere, as air expands it cools and then falls. This is the principle behind radiator in your house. Once you take the bottle out of the freezer, the temperature increases quickly and the pressure changes, then the bottle expands quickly. This causes the temperature of the water to drop, quickly, thus freeze. (Probably not all the way through to the middle).
Does this make sense to scientists? If not I wrote it after 3 beers, and I will be prepared to amend it in the morning. CT

[Bert]

Clanad, Where did you get the idea that most mineral water is actually distilled water? It definitely is not. Another source of nucleation points can be found in a container. Try pouring any fizzy drink into a brand new glass and compare what happens when you pour some of the same drink into an old well-used and often-washed glass. It's even more dramatic if you use an old plasic beaker. In BigB's case, the bottle was obviously brand-new and would have no scratches on the interior surface. All the stuff about pressure changes is a red herring. The pressure required to make ice stay liquid in a domestic freezer (-12 degrees C at least) would be tremendous.

[Clanad]

Bert, the following article is from an MSNBC site, but repeated in many other places, including IBWA (International Bottled Water Assn.)

Purified Water:
Water that has been produced by distillation, deionization, reverse osmosis or other suitable processes and that meets the definition of purified water in the United States Pharmacopoeia (pharmacological code) may be labeled as purified bottled water. Other suitable product names for bottled water treated by one of the above processes may include "distilled water" if it is produced by distillation, "deionized water" if the water is produced by deionization, or "reverse osmosis water" if the process used is reverse osmosis. Alternatively "_____________ drinking water" can be used with the blank being filled in with one of the terms defined in this paragraph (e.g. "purified drinking water" or "distilled drinking water"). These waters are taken primarily from metropolitan water sources, run through mammoth commercial filters, and purified of chlorines, detritus, and other items inappropriate for drinking water. You may have seen vending machines outside of your supermarket that allows you to fill your own bottle for 25 or 50 cents; this is the water and process that is used and is from metropolitan sources or even the tap water adjacent to the machine�s location. They are excellent to cook with when tap water quality is an issue.

The article concludes that, in the U.S., between 30 and 35 percent of bottled water falls in this category. I see in the U.K. many advertisements for distilled water or other such equivalent treatments... Check the label on your next bottle of water and watch for the key words "purified"... by the way, I think I actually said "a lot of"... not "most"...

[mibn2cweus]

Ain't science cool! I have experienced a false sense of relief upon removing a plastic bottle of coke from the freezer amazed to find it had not frozen only to watch it turn into a volcano of ice upon removing the cap?

[Bert]

Clanad, there is a big difference between mineral water and purified water (or de-ionised water). The whole point of de-ionised water is that there are no ions in it - it is pure water with no minerals in it. This is the water for car batteries and steam irons. I read years ago that it was not suitable for drinking, but I don't know why this should be so, unless it was the only water you drank, in which case you might end up deficient in some minerals. The whole point about mineral water is that it does contain minerals, e.g. iron, calcium, magnesium, which many people believe to be beneficial - though, with a well-balanced diet, you can always get sufficient minerals from other foods.