"shot For Going To School" - Bbc Documentary

[LazyGun]

A heads up for those interested.

Documentary recounting Malala Yousafzai's story, and similar issues in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/27/shot-for-going-to-school.html

[naomi24]

Nothing much, Keyplus. He just said you live in Luton - which you don't.

[keyplus90]

My definition of inocent is very simple. All of the people are innocent apart from the one who attacks (unprovoked) you or try to kill you or harm you where self defence rule is applied. Now lets see your definition? Is it everyone apart from Muslim?

[naomi24]

Em, //The young women learning the Qu'ran seemed totally brainwashed,//

That's because they are. The reporter remarked on the 'discipline'. That's one word for it.

[keyplus90]

Of course I don't live in Luton but in Hounslow. And I am quite willing to give him my home address if he or anyone else wants to visit me. I would even pick him/her from the station if necessary. I would like to show him Islamic hospitality. I have nothing to hide so why sorry.

[keyplus90]

Sorry, meant to say "why worry". I think its time to go bed now as my fingures have started slipping away.

[naomi24]

Ah, but you see, Keyplus, you’re sneaky with it. According to you Muslims don’t commit atrocities, so those who do aren’t innocent because they aren’t Muslims. I recall discussions about 9/11, and the beheading of poor Ken Bigley and others. According to you, Muslims weren’t responsible for any of that – and now we have Malala – and again, according to you, the Taliban in Pakistan, who acknowledge responsibility, are really the CIA, so once again - according to you - Muslims are off the hook. We know that within Islam it is permissible for you to deceive the infidel - but try as you may, you consistently fail. It has become quite apparent over the years that you have your own interpretation of the word 'innocent'.

Don't post your address here.

[LazyGun]

Innocence - Tricky philosophical question really. In terms of armed conflicts, both formal in the sense of a declaration of war, or informal in the sense of resistance against an occupying force, or armed resistance to an oppressive regime, then anyone actively engaged in such actions, or complicit with their origin or planning, or who encourages such an armed struggle through the written word or rhetorical debate could be considered a legitimate target, someone who is not innocent. Everyone else is an innocent, most certainly children.

Not entirely happy with that definition, but it will do as a starting point.

So by that definition, Malala was an innocent. And she was targeted by the Taliban, those staunch and upright guardians of a fundamentalist and literal interpretation of Islam and Sharia. They claimed as much themselves, when they offered a public statement admitting their actions, and their reasons. In their own words, Malala "went against Islam and Sharia". Being an innocent, a child, did not protect her from these noble fighters for justice.

You cannot claim that Islam is innocent by using the argument that those who commit crimes against humanity in the name of Islam are no longer muslim. Thats circular logic. They self -identify as muslim, they self-identify as followers of Islam, they are supported by Imams and politicians who believe in a fundamentalist islamic worldview. They are muslims, and what has prompted their actions are Islamic teachings - from the madrassas in Pakistan.

There is no "2 taliban", one CIA sponsored and one honourable one. Its all the same organisation, spanning Afghanistan and Pakistan, with much of its origins actually in Pakistan.

Others have made the point, many times, and it one with which i agree. There are parallels between the Islam of now, with those willing to kill and maim and oppress others in the name of a fundamentalist interpretation of that religion, and christianity several hundred years ago, with crusades, and auto-da-fe and witchhunts and zealous missionaries and all of that.

Teachings within the Islamic tradition are antithetical to a modern, progressive egalitarian humanity that cherishes individual freedoms for all, irrespective of colour, creed or gender. Those who follow islamic teachings need to recognise this, need to mature ,like christianity did, if it wishes to become an accepted way of life.

It was extremely ironic that the Imam in the documentary, speaking to the female interviewer, said that Islam was the most peaceful religion, but then went on to claim a justification for a violence in defence. And defending your religion can take many forms, as we have seen to our cost. Compare that idea with one of the principal teachings of christianity, which urges people to "turn the other cheek". Which is the most peaceful religion again?

One final point and a request. Many claim that Islam "is the fastest growing religion in the west" or words to that effect. The implication of that claim is that people within the west are converting to Islam in droves, rather than it being growth through migration of muslims. Anyone have any authoratitive figures on the conversion rates of other religions/none to islam by europeans?

[jim360]

The short answer to your question about an authoritative figure on conversion rates to Islam is, or appears to be, "no".

The principal study in this field is the Pew Forum Report of 2011:

http://www.pewforum.org/The-Future-of-the-Global-Muslim-Population.aspx

Page 65 is the section on conversion and begins: "Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available
suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally..."

Most of the remainder of that short section considers conversion rates in Africa where the best figures are available, but the pattern appears to be replicated in the US and Europe. Essentially, there are far too few Muslims in the West for any survey to be reliable enough to draw conclusions from it. Best guess is that the number of converts are roughly equal even in the UK to the number of people leaving the faith.

[naomi24]

LG, I don’t think there are any official figures for conversions in Europe, but this mentions France, where many Muslims are converting to Christianity, a trend that is seen in countries around the world, including many Islamic states, eastern European countries, and most notably Africa where numbers are extremely high. It is estimated that 75% of US converts abandon Islam within the first few years. It would appear that unless Islam maintains its exceptionally high birth rate, it will be in decline.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Population)

[LazyGun]

@ Jim and Naomi,

Thanks for the links both. So, based upon the available data, the increase in the numbers of muslims in the UK and europe at least, seems to stem almost entirely from greater birth rates within the muslim community, and migrants, rather than any significant number of conversions of europeans of other faiths or none.

This seems a much better description of the current set-up than Keyplus' vision of hordes of europeans converting to islam out of disillusion with modern day living as he would have it.

I also think that current trends in the west suggest a steady decline in religiosity amongst the young, and that applies to young muslims too, albeit perhaps at a lower rate because of family and friends etc.

[Octavius]

Lazygun, I think that the younger generation are moving away from religion because they believe they can define spirituality as they wish, without the traditions and hindrances of religion.

They may still believe in God etc, but have no desire to have their spirituality channelled, organised and dictated by someone else.

[ludwig]

// All of the people are innocent apart from the one who attacks (unprovoked) you or try to kill you or harm you where self defence rule is applied. //

Keypluses answers are always carefully worded. I sense the insertion of the word 'unprovoked' is important in the above example - the concepts of provocation and self-defence also being open to different interpretations, same as that of innocence.

[LazyGun]

@ Octavius - You might well be right. I was careful to say a decline in religiousity, rather than spirituality - I have no data on that, so cannot commen t directly.

[beso]

Come now LazyGun. Malala was no innocent. She was eleven years old - a grown woman overdue for marriage in the opinion of many Muslims.