Listener 4253 All Change By Dilwitch

[dr b]

I can certainly appreciate the masterful job of constructing the puzzle, but this one ranked low on the fun-o-meter for me. No pennies to drop or endgame to solve, so it was just a matter of slogging through a lot of quasi-cold solving and asking "Is that weird word really a coin"? By the end I felt about obscure coins like the little girl whose book report on penguins consisted entirely of the sentence, "This book gives me more information about penguins than I care to have."

[s_pugh]

I'm sure Dilwitch put a lot of effort into this, but like mostly everyone else I found it a tedious plod and often considered just jacking it in through sheer boredom. The contribution from lyrabelacqua has to be the best answer for me!

[Alekhine]

I'd misplaced this earlier, but finally found it down the back of the sofa.

Right .. now to finish off 4252.

[Gitto]

This was made easy because, a) you knew the theme and b) the long answers always had easy clues, I'm going nuts with 4252 which represents the other end of the scale!!

[Ruthrobin]

I was one of the early moaners but I am becoming rather depressed about our grumbling. A Listener setter put probably a couple of hundred hours into the original compilation then another hundred or so correcting his submission and adjusting it for the editors. He (she) waits for two or three or even more years to see it in publication and we (the first lot of input he/she sees when he is hoping for a positive reaction) do nothing but moan. This one had some great points - a preamble that told us all that we needed to know: a solution that was clearly the right one and unabmbiguous once we got to it, and a set of well-written clues that demanded rather a lot of research from us. I think we are moaning partly because we had to work so hard, and I apologise for being such a miserable curmudgeon!

[dr b]

All true, but if we can't give our honest reaction to the solving process, what's the point of having this thread? All that would be left is for everyone to say, "I finished, thank you for your efforts, Mr. or Ms. Setter." And, I did begin my post by using the word "masterful."

[Arcticpenguin]

Same sentiments here as most others. For me this was like the numerical ones - Its not that I can't do them but it's just not the same fun. And no real words in the completed grid ! They might as well have been numbers. Shame really as the construction was truly spectacular.

[Philoctetes]

OK, RR, I appreciate your feelings on the setter's behalf. But....Firstly, this is the same for any creative process. The act of submission or publication is one of potential pain, and all of us who have ever done it in whatever field know that. Why should setters be different? Secondly, the receiving of criticism, however harsh, is the ONLY way to learn and develop at your craft - withholding criticism is doing everyone a disservice. Finally, if, as you imply, setters come to sites like this to gauge reaction, then surely they must also learn from here what their "customers" expect from a puzzle? Purely mechanical ones like this get panned - I know that, so is it beyond a setter to know that? We like twists, pdms and endgames, we like to learn something, we like intellectual adventure. And we should be allowed our voice if those are not forthcoming. Sorry, Dilwitch, I do sympathise with how you must be feeling, but, if you take this criticism as you should, your next one - and I hope there will be a next one - will be better received.

[Scorpius]

Both Ruthrobin and Philoctetes, representing different viewpoints, have made those points very well. I also have been critical, but in support of the setter it needs to be said that the editors chose to publish the puzzle, so they must think that there are solvers who will appreciate it more than contributors to this forum. My guess is that is intended to appeal to solvers who may be fed up with internet searches and who want a puzzle that is dependent for its solution on nothing but Chambers and the solver's own brain. A few years back I remember the previous editors asked for more such puzzles to be submitted.

[teuchter2]

Like most others, I found this a bit of a slog. I prefer grids where real words appear at the end. I think I deserve a crown for persevering with this one. Although I have finished, I still do not know what the S African plant is, but I don't need to. I could take a punt at it, but I'd rather have a kip!

[olichant]

Having grumbled (gently) myself earlier in the thread, I feel I should just amplify one thing I said. The clues in this puzzle are marvellous, and for anyone who has given up (maybe understandably) for the lack of a show-stopping string of PDMs - if you treat this puzzle for a pure exercise in clue-solving (with a very tricky, and - as has been pointed out above - unch-rich grid) it has much to commend it. Just my two cents.

[tramart]

In many clues I picked out the likely extra word, worked through the possible letter mixtures and the substitution usually became clear. Only then set about solving the clue. So, some interest in providing a different way of solving.
Starting the Listener on a Sunday I like the solving to take several days - 4252 took until the following Sunday, splendid. 4253 finished already.

[borealis]

I thought you lot would be mostly moaning.
Thoughts on both sides follow.
Positives:
some great, and novel, clueing
seasonal; can (and should) be done in the garden without internet
construction
Negatives:
repetitions - but I bet alternatives were considered and rejected
over-unching (partly alleviated by reverse engineering)
"dandiprat" wasn't in it

I am left, unusually for a Listener, with a feeling that I could have made an error here and not know about it! P145 doesn't have 'em all.....

[EAChaplin]

It does now:-)

[Philoctetes]

A late addition to the grumbles, which I should have noted earlier. 13a, as Scorpius noted, is effectively 80% unch. Is it fair, therefore, to have a clue of that structure?

[IainGrace]

Accept RuthRobin's comments, particularly regarding some clever clues, but a good Listener starts at the beginning and ends at the end, with a feeling of satisfaction that one has struggled to the finishing line. This one was just running on the spot. Also, the comment that the same currency recurs is a valid criticism of the quality of the compiling.