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Should Eu Countries Have A Vote On Scottish Independance.
18 Answers
Started thinking about this.
Once Scotland is floated off this will significantly reduce the Gross National Income of the UK. The GNI is used by the EU to calculate taxes on a country i.e VAT, levied as a proportion of VAT in each member country. Capped at 50% of a countries Gross National income.
GNI based taxation, A multiplier is applied with revenue capped at 1.23% of GNI
Surely this means the UK will not have to pay so much and, as I dont see how Scotland can join the EU without breaking every rule in the book, it then follows that the EU will be short of a few bob. And even if it was allowed in it would probably qualify to be a net receiver rather than a net contributor.
So should they too be asked as they are affected by it?
Once Scotland is floated off this will significantly reduce the Gross National Income of the UK. The GNI is used by the EU to calculate taxes on a country i.e VAT, levied as a proportion of VAT in each member country. Capped at 50% of a countries Gross National income.
GNI based taxation, A multiplier is applied with revenue capped at 1.23% of GNI
Surely this means the UK will not have to pay so much and, as I dont see how Scotland can join the EU without breaking every rule in the book, it then follows that the EU will be short of a few bob. And even if it was allowed in it would probably qualify to be a net receiver rather than a net contributor.
So should they too be asked as they are affected by it?
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Being a member of a club does not give members of that club the right to vote on the sovereign identity of other members of the club. They will just have to adjust, assuming Scotland were to vote for Independence. Like you, I would imagine that their membership of the EU is not automatic, unlike Mr Salmon. Like you, I would imagine that the contributions expected from England/Wales would also decrease, in line with the reduced GDP.
Whether Scotland elects for independence or not is a matter for Scots and those living within its borders at the time of the referendum. Others who might be affected are certainly entitled to air their opinion, but that's the extent of their involvement.
Whether Scotland elects for independence or not is a matter for Scots and those living within its borders at the time of the referendum. Others who might be affected are certainly entitled to air their opinion, but that's the extent of their involvement.
Which will look like this when the Gunboat reaches Faslane?
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@YMB - I honestly do not know. Its my understanding that the revised Great Britain, absent Scotland, assuming they were to vote for independence, would not need to re-apply for membership, but that is only what I have read.
Those of you wishing for a referendum on EU membership should be lobbying hard for that referendum question to be asked on the same day as Scotlands Independence referendum :)
Those of you wishing for a referendum on EU membership should be lobbying hard for that referendum question to be asked on the same day as Scotlands Independence referendum :)
There are a couple of issues to do with the EU and Scottish independence.
Firstly there is the matter of whether Scotland’s membership of the EU would be automatically continued in the event of their secession from the UK. Most opinions seem to suggest that it would not and that Scotland would have to re-apply for membership. Presumably they would be considered after the current candidates have had their applications determined. The current list includes Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey. As well as those, Serbia and Macedonia are clamouring to get aboard as are some of the Balkan States - notably Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Should they not lose the will to live during this period there is no guarantee that Scotland will be admitted and if they do they must adopt the euro. Mr Salmond and his cronies have been suspiciously quiet on this matter and it is disingenuous to say the least that they have published their proposals for independence without a proper answer to this question being provided.
Secondly, although it has not been mentioned by the UK government, there almost certainly will be an effect on the membership of the rump of the UK which will be brought about by Scotland’s departure. I imagine these will be mainly financial along the lines already mentioned. However I an not so optimistic and I suspect the EU will still want the same amount of cash from the UK so it will fall as a heavier burden on a per capita basis.
As far as the analogy with a gentlemen’s club goes, if the UK is to be likened to a club LG is quite right in that individual members should not be compelled to retain their membership if they wish to leave. However, to continue the analogy, it could be argued that all the members should be able to say if they want a member expelled and this is an option that has never been offered to the rest of the UK, in particular to the English. There is no doubt in my mind that England would be better served as an independent nation but the various devolution and independence options discussed centre only on the benefits those arrangements provide for the smaller nations. England has to take what’s forced on them by these arrangements.
However, the UK is not a gentlemen’s club from which members can resign at will. It is a unified political entity and an independent nation state in its entirety. The Act of Union, into which they entered freely and, some would say, eagerly, saw the Scots forfeit their sovereignty in perpetuity and not until they got fed up with it. As a result they have no more right to demand independence, or especially to dictate beneficial terms of that separation, than Cornwall has.
Firstly there is the matter of whether Scotland’s membership of the EU would be automatically continued in the event of their secession from the UK. Most opinions seem to suggest that it would not and that Scotland would have to re-apply for membership. Presumably they would be considered after the current candidates have had their applications determined. The current list includes Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey. As well as those, Serbia and Macedonia are clamouring to get aboard as are some of the Balkan States - notably Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Should they not lose the will to live during this period there is no guarantee that Scotland will be admitted and if they do they must adopt the euro. Mr Salmond and his cronies have been suspiciously quiet on this matter and it is disingenuous to say the least that they have published their proposals for independence without a proper answer to this question being provided.
Secondly, although it has not been mentioned by the UK government, there almost certainly will be an effect on the membership of the rump of the UK which will be brought about by Scotland’s departure. I imagine these will be mainly financial along the lines already mentioned. However I an not so optimistic and I suspect the EU will still want the same amount of cash from the UK so it will fall as a heavier burden on a per capita basis.
As far as the analogy with a gentlemen’s club goes, if the UK is to be likened to a club LG is quite right in that individual members should not be compelled to retain their membership if they wish to leave. However, to continue the analogy, it could be argued that all the members should be able to say if they want a member expelled and this is an option that has never been offered to the rest of the UK, in particular to the English. There is no doubt in my mind that England would be better served as an independent nation but the various devolution and independence options discussed centre only on the benefits those arrangements provide for the smaller nations. England has to take what’s forced on them by these arrangements.
However, the UK is not a gentlemen’s club from which members can resign at will. It is a unified political entity and an independent nation state in its entirety. The Act of Union, into which they entered freely and, some would say, eagerly, saw the Scots forfeit their sovereignty in perpetuity and not until they got fed up with it. As a result they have no more right to demand independence, or especially to dictate beneficial terms of that separation, than Cornwall has.
Treaties can always be renegotiated.Unions can always be subject to a review. There are examples of this simple fact all over the world, often ending in bloodshed, tragically.
People today should not be held hostage in perpetuity to the agreements of their forefathers, without any prospect of a review.If a treaty or union was freely entered into, whether it was constitutionally binding or not,freely entered into or not,simple democratic principles should mean that descendants of such a union/treaty should have the right to review that decision, should one of the partners decide through a democratic process that they want one.
If England, Wales and NI had wished to kick out the Scots from the Union, then it might be appropriate for them to have a vote/referendum on that action, but that's not the case here, is it?
People today should not be held hostage in perpetuity to the agreements of their forefathers, without any prospect of a review.If a treaty or union was freely entered into, whether it was constitutionally binding or not,freely entered into or not,simple democratic principles should mean that descendants of such a union/treaty should have the right to review that decision, should one of the partners decide through a democratic process that they want one.
If England, Wales and NI had wished to kick out the Scots from the Union, then it might be appropriate for them to have a vote/referendum on that action, but that's not the case here, is it?
It think that offering a club one in a member of a say in what you do is going a bit far. The union and the part that is considering breaking away from that union, have a good case for a say, but even then the union would find it difficult to impose a veto if it disagreed with a secede vote. Not without being seen as oppressive anyway, Unfair though that is. But the EU. You're having a laugh surely.
“If England, Wales and NI had wished to kick out the Scots from the Union, then it might be appropriate for them to have a vote/referendum on that action, but that's not the case here, is it?”
We wouldn’t know, would we? Nobody’s ever asked.
“ Not sure why other Members of the EEC should have any input whatsoever in the Scottish Independence vote.”
Why not, Mikey? They have a say in who Scotland may or may not admit to its shores, who may or may not remain there, how much foreign nationals living in Scotland must be paid if they live on benefits, whether the Scottish government can provide financial support to its businesses. The list is endless. Why should they not have a say on the alliances Scotland keeps?
We wouldn’t know, would we? Nobody’s ever asked.
“ Not sure why other Members of the EEC should have any input whatsoever in the Scottish Independence vote.”
Why not, Mikey? They have a say in who Scotland may or may not admit to its shores, who may or may not remain there, how much foreign nationals living in Scotland must be paid if they live on benefits, whether the Scottish government can provide financial support to its businesses. The list is endless. Why should they not have a say on the alliances Scotland keeps?
@NJ because it is a sovereign matter. If the EU have any concerns about Scotlands alliances,or its position on immigration, or its benefits/ public spending position, the time for them to express those views would be when voting on Scotlands entrance to the EU - they have no say in a referendum on Scotlands independence.
My immediate reaction to this question was "No: it's none of their business!"
On further thought and, after taking in your explanation of the mechanism by which the EU extracts its funds from us, it struck me that the main motivation for the independence movement is the oil revenue. If they grasp that for the newly-independent Scotland then, if the EU rules do not permit automatic instant re-entry*, then a sizeable chunk of the EU's revenue stream will be shut off for however long it takes for the entry acceptance process to run to completion.
Of course it's an over-simplification for me to place so much importance on oil, relative to their other big revenue earners. I'm only doing it because Salmond makes such a big thing about where the oil money goes and who subsidises whom, on either side of the border.
* If I recall correctly, the Balkan states all split from their parent nations and established independence prior to their separate acceptance into the EU. Therefore I cannot think of a single example of any EU state having a principality or former independent nation/region secede or the fallout thereof.
By way of example, there was something I saw on Newsnight a few years back about Wollonia wanting independence from Belgium but the story has not been revisited since that time. It would be interesting to know if EU entanglements were what made that fail.
On further thought and, after taking in your explanation of the mechanism by which the EU extracts its funds from us, it struck me that the main motivation for the independence movement is the oil revenue. If they grasp that for the newly-independent Scotland then, if the EU rules do not permit automatic instant re-entry*, then a sizeable chunk of the EU's revenue stream will be shut off for however long it takes for the entry acceptance process to run to completion.
Of course it's an over-simplification for me to place so much importance on oil, relative to their other big revenue earners. I'm only doing it because Salmond makes such a big thing about where the oil money goes and who subsidises whom, on either side of the border.
* If I recall correctly, the Balkan states all split from their parent nations and established independence prior to their separate acceptance into the EU. Therefore I cannot think of a single example of any EU state having a principality or former independent nation/region secede or the fallout thereof.
By way of example, there was something I saw on Newsnight a few years back about Wollonia wanting independence from Belgium but the story has not been revisited since that time. It would be interesting to know if EU entanglements were what made that fail.
Well Salmond and the SNP obviously do not view the EU in quite the same way that you do, YMB :)
It would actually be quite interesting to see a comparative poll between Scotland and England/Wales/NI on EU membership, I think. No question that euroscepticism is on the rise in England, but I am unsure what the feeling is in Scotland - I suspect that euroscepticism is more muted there.
And I think you conflate issues surrounding sovereign status with derogation of legislative powers subsequent to majority agreed rules of membership for a club. You can certainly have an argument about the extent of those rules- there are those within the EU who would definitely wish for the steady progression towards a Federal Europe, for instance, whereas others merely look for an extended trading zone- but those rules does not give them the right or even the desire to interfere in debates within a particular country of the independence of sectors of those member countries.
It would actually be quite interesting to see a comparative poll between Scotland and England/Wales/NI on EU membership, I think. No question that euroscepticism is on the rise in England, but I am unsure what the feeling is in Scotland - I suspect that euroscepticism is more muted there.
And I think you conflate issues surrounding sovereign status with derogation of legislative powers subsequent to majority agreed rules of membership for a club. You can certainly have an argument about the extent of those rules- there are those within the EU who would definitely wish for the steady progression towards a Federal Europe, for instance, whereas others merely look for an extended trading zone- but those rules does not give them the right or even the desire to interfere in debates within a particular country of the independence of sectors of those member countries.
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