EU referendum problem for Cameron

[Gromit]

Cameron promised a referendum on any new EU treaties. Now France and Germany want a new treaty, signed by all 27 EU country members, to achieve fiscal union.

Most countries will have to hold referendums before they can sign. Cameron will probably opt the UK out because we are not in the Eurozone. Fiscal Union will go ahead without any of us in the UK having a say in the matter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16029474

Do you Conservatives and people who want the UK out of the EU feel betrayed?

[Gromit]

The Conservative's website states:

// The conservative Party believes that Britain should play a leading role in an enlarged European Union, but that no further areas of power should be transferred to Brussels without a referendum. //

And Fiscal Union does not constitute a transfer of power to Brussels?

Have they run out of wriggle room?

[VHG]

The EU and the Euro members seem to be making a great job of ruining the whole thing on their own.

Eventually the whole thing will implode so sugget we just sit back and wait for that to happen.

Stupid idea to have 27 countries in the EU anyway, particulalry when they range from countries like Germany, France, UK etc to many poor undeveloped countires on the Eastern side.

Why the hell should a Roma Gypsy have the right to come and live (and sponge off) any other EU country, just because the country they happen to be born in joins the EU. What a ridiculous situation.

[AB Editor]

Morning Gromit,

He is backed into the corner here. Tragically predictable though, a very traditional Tory problem.

The really sad thing is that no one is suggesting "no taxation without representation" - a reformed, democratic and restrained EU would make everyone feel a whole lot better.

[jake-the-peg]

Actually No

Cameron promissed a referendum before any additional powers were to be transfered Brussells

As that is not on the agenda he is not obliged to call one.

Fiscal Union would *IF* we were part of it - but we're not

- unless everyone in the UK started using Euros last night while I wasn't watching - and I bought a coffee this morning so I'm pretty sure that didn't happen!

The Euro-skeptics are playing fast and loose with this - claiming that any change at all (and they don't even know yet what is proposed) should trigger one.

We can expect the usual suspects lead by the Express to scream half truths from the front pages.

[jake-the-peg]

PS I suspect Ireland may be more of a problem for the Franco-German plan - they're really suffering right now and are not likely to be co-operative.

We're probably in the second division of concerns

[Old_Geezer]

Cameron can opt the UK out of the EU any time he wants as far as I am concerned ;-)

[modeller]

We the electorate have a problem . None of our political parties have the answer and none of our leaders have the guts to strike out and for once put the UK first . We are being betrayed by Cameron but we were betrayed far more by Blair and Brown .

[modeller]

I would advocate setting up a new type of EFTA . For those who forget what that was , it was a free trade area within Europe of like minded countries who were not in the Common Market. It was Ted Heath who betrayed the other members when he dumped them and joined the Common Market on their terms resulting in the chaos of the CAP with its Butter Mountans and Wine Lakes . Which made French inefficient fatmers rich . kept retail prices high in Europe and virtually gave away our surpluses to Russia and the Eastern Bloc .
Since those days we export 30% of our goods to Europe but import 70% of theirs. In addition we pay them hundeds of millions for the doubtful privilege of belonging to their club which stifle our business. They need us a hell of a lot more than we needing them.
On the plus side the EU has helped to keep the peace in Europe .

[Old_Geezer]

I suspect that is questionable. It implies war would have broken out otherwise. Mutual aid relieves tensions rather than progress towards a full union.

[jno]

the EU was constructed to stop France and Germany going to war again, which they had done more than twice. Considering what those wars cost Britain, peace has been beneficial to the UK as well. Brits never seem happier than when getting into a war, just not at home.

[Gromit]

modeller,

Blair and Brown never promised anything other than full EU membership. Cameron promise a referendum on any changes, then has gone back on his word.

[Quizmonster]

But for Gordon Brown's "five economic tests", we would probably have BEEN part of the eurozone by now!

[anotheoldgit]

/// Cameron promise a referendum on any changes, then has gone back on his word. ///

Have there been any changes since Cameron has been in power?

If not then he hasn't yet broke his promise.

[Philtaz]

Of course he'll hand over more powers to the EU without consulting us, he'll just dress it up nicely in political speak and make it look as if we will benefit in the long run.

We're still all going to hell in a hand cart on this one.

[modeller]

Blair betrayed us by giving away half our discount and agreeing with all the rubbish the EU threw at us despite knowing we the electorate being against much of what the EU was doing. He was interested in one thing , himself , he wanted to be the EU's first president, and was prepared to sell us out to get it.
Brown signed up for the Lisbon treaty despite knowing we were against it.
He also did not allow us a referendum as he feared the result. Same as Cameron . Whatever changes are made this week Cameron will say they do not justify a referendum. He will wriggle out of it somehow.

[New Judge]

Plan A preferred by the Merkel/Sarkozy coterie is fiscal union for the entire 27 nations, although they both profess that (for the moment anyway) they only want to see this for the seventeen Eurozone nations. (This is the usual strategy for any changes in the EU. Start with something you think you can get away with. Then expand it by stealth under the guise of a “minor change – not much different to what we currently have”).

This would involve complete fiscal control from Berlin (ostensibly via Brussels) of all the member states. They would have to have their budgets “approved” by EU representatives who will have power of veto over their spending. Each of their spending departments would have a resident EU inspector presiding over its spending. There would be a range of “punishments” available for those nations who transgress by breaking the approved plans.

My own plan A would be for the Eurozone to break up entirely and for each member state to revert to their own individual currencies, thus sparing us any further lunacy. If the EU (or more accurately Merkel/Sarkozy) continue to fanny about as they have done for the past two years this will come about sooner rather than later. Their Plan A will simply take too long to put in place and time is now of the essence. Yes, it will be very painful, but infinitely preferable to the current “death by a thousand cuts”.

My own plan B would be the Merkel/Sarkozy Plan A. The UK would then be forced (under legislation recently passed) to hold a referendum and if UK voters vote in favour of the Franco-German plan, then they deserve all they will undoubtedly get.

[Gromit]

Strange how the veto has got Cameron out of a sticky corner and yet no one has got what they really wanted.

I suspect this is just storing up more problems for him in the future.

[Colmc54]

Like major and Thatcher before him Europe is once again a bridge too far for his party. The rise of UKIP has his MPs worrying about their careerist constituency seats-for-life positions and hence his party's problems.

However when Labour have a safe seat they do nothing, unemployment and benefit dependency rise in order to make them eternally Labour, as per the Glasgow North-East constituency before the last election after 75 years of Labour electoral dominance.

The PM has more on offer than the BBC would have you think. Yes the BBC headlined that there would be no renegotiations about the freedom to work anywhere in the EU but the president of the EU (subsequently censored by the BBC) said on the Andrew Marr Show that there was a case for the control of benefit migrancy, for which he used the term 'abuse'.

What we should remember is that all over Europe people look to Britain for their lead in what to do about the consequences of our welfare state based society. When they see their talisman in trouble they realise that they could be next.

Thankfully I can suggest this because the BBC don't censor this site. Yet!