Moral Absolutes

[jomifl]

Are there any moral values that can be or should be considered 'absolute' or are they all up for argument and subjective opinion?

[Kromovaracun]

This question demands a different standard of evidence to other questions.

Personally, as someone else said, I think a good measure for morality is human wellbeing - which, broadly speaking and with a considerable margin of error, we can kind of "measure."

We know for example that forcing someone into sex against their will is not particularly conducive to their wellbeing. We know the same thing about subjugating women, and/or teaching women to love their own subjugation.

This is not to say that there is one standardised measure of wellbeing - and for it to work, it needs a more detailed definition of what 'wellbeing' actually means than I can be bothered to write up at the moment. But it's a very effective rule of thumb, and I think does offer a way for us to tell what is moral and what isn't.

[pixie373]

And if a woman is happy with subjugation, is it still wrong?

[karlz]

I haven't read all of this just the question and last answer pixie373.
yes it's very wrong for a man to subjugate a woman, it's even sadder that she allows it.

[Kromovaracun]

"And if a woman is happy with subjugation, is it still wrong?"

Yes, I'd say so. Because we know that in the long run, it is not conducive to human wellbeing.

[mibn2cweus]

Subjugation implies the use of force to control. The initiation of or submission to force is never proper nor required in rational human relationships pursued by those who recognise that only mutually beneficial relationships are truly beneficial to or desired by either party.

A master of slaves is merely a slave to their own dependence on the unjustly compensated productivity of others for their own sustenance. Independence, dealing with others only on terms of mutual agreement for the mutual benefit of all involved, without chain, shackle, club, or intimidation is the hallmark of a rational human being.

[emmie]

child abuse,

[Kromovaracun]

"Subjugation implies the use of force to control"

Not necessarily. As I mentioned before, women all over the world are taught to embrace the fact that they are the property of men and have less rights.

"The initiation of or submission to force is never proper nor required in rational human relationships"

The problem is that people have to deal with relationships that aren't rational, too. It's perfectly reasonable to use force against a bully, for example. And sometimes the rational outcome of a relationship can be violence - if there are any Zimbabweans left plotting to kill Mugabe, for instance, I certainly wouldn't call them irrational or immoral.

[pixie373]

My instinct is that subjugation is always wrong. As devil's advocate, I'm thinking that I'm applying my own morals to someone else, who might have been brought up genuinely believing it's right. Hard though it is to imagine, are other cultures always wrong?

[Kromovaracun]

"are other cultures always wrong?"

Of course not. Likewise, our own culture often gets things wrong - which is why I get frustrated with people who fail to realise it.

[jomifl]

Although there appears to be no such thing as a moral absolute there may well be tests that can be applied to moral values that could determine their valitity and fairness.

[Spoonboy]

It depends, I suppose, if you consider yourself a "absolutely" moral!

[mibn2cweus]

If we take into consideration that which distinguishes us as a species from other species, our rational faculty, I would hesitate to classify all two legged beasts as human. The use of necessary force to defend oneself from unchosen relationships and mindless brutality is distinct from the initiation of the use of force as a means to obtain power and control over others.

When I use the term 'human' I'm generally referring less loosely to those that by the definition of 'rational animal' qualify. I see no reason to subsume bullies or those who desire to be owned like a pet within my definition of what it means to be human.