Listener 4286 No Robbery! By Radix

[emcee]

Searching this site hasn't found any other threads for this puzzle, so here goes!

I thought this was the toughest puzzle for some time. It took me several hours last night before the penny finally dropped as to what was going on with all three types of clue.

As with all of Radix's puzzles, the clues were tough (but fair) and the construction was exceptional - how on earth would you ensure such a neat final grid with all the constraints imposed therein?

A puzzle which is a fitting tribute to a very able gentleman. Many thanks, Radix.

[Philoctetes]

Well, that was a proper Listener and no mistake.
When I first visited this site, some few years back, there was a lot more in the way of little nudges, by no means explicit, but enough to give an encouraging hand. One or two contributors would spell out too much, but they were rapidly chastised and have generally stopped contributing. However, in recent years, this site has often become a board for smugly saying "I finished in less time than anyone else. Brilliant Puzzle. Wow. But don't let on to anyone". Apart from stroking the ego of the poster, this doesn't really add much.
I would like to think the friendly nudge is acceptable, and available here. After all, many of the winners turn out to be couples, and I presume they give each other such nudges. Does no one here ask anyone else for help, or are we ascetic purists in our cells (my stick insects are not much help, I'm afraid)? The problem is inherent in the internet, in that what may seem like a quiet word in a shell-like actually turns out to be a scream audible by the entire population of the planet. But what is worse is the shocked responder who in turn screams "OMG - he's just revealed to the world the secret key to everything", when no one really would have noticed.
All I really ask for is that posters show consideration at all points, both for those who want help, and those who don't.

[JohnCox]

I am happy to report a family success. Reasonably enjoyable with the method known, though I wouldn't have cared to attempt it without.

[crosswhit99]

Well done John , that's good to know - Roddy would be chuffed I'm sure !

[jim360]

Congratulations John and family! I hope the experience hasn't been too off-putting for you? A newcomer to the Listener solvers' fold, perhaps?

[olichant]

Congratulations, John! If it's any consolation, this is very much at the difficult end of the Listener scale. Also - and this will sound a bit odd - but it might seem even more inpenetrable than it actually is if you are told what the "gimmick" is before you start solving. Part of the joy (and I do mean that!) with these puzzles is that, as you go through the process of solving, you often see things that just don't quite seem to make sense - and it's possible to make certain logical deductions about what sorts of things must be "going on" as a result. That's part of the reason why a lot of people (me included, if I'm honest) are a bit prickly if someone gives away the "interesting bit".

Some really interesting comments above on the pros and cons of discussing specific elements of live puzzles online - almost worth a thread in its own right?

[Orientfan100]

I'm with you Olichant on the joy of the penny-drops moment. That said, I would have failed to start this puzzle without the 'hints' that gave me a way in and to finish it without the dawning realisation that the very complexity of the puzzle necessitated some pretty recherché use of language. I'll be very interested to know how many complete first-timers were successful - and how many come back for more!

[iamamoose]

BTW was anybody else bothered by an apparently singular answer with a plural definition? Or am i missing something ?

[iamamoose]

Scratch last query- I see my error!
I agree the 'hint' debate is interesting. I guess the right thing to do is comply the generally accepted ethos of the thread you are on. But since a thread is a constantly changing community, this can be tricky. And if you're visiting for the first time, how would you know. That said, I hate spoilers , and would be reluctant to give up reading this thread every week because I really enjoy the discussion and the banter.

[JohnCox]

Is the answer to the hints issue perhaps separate threads?

Have now moved on to Roddy's famous chess puzzle, which he gave me 15 years ago with the characteristically disingenuous remark that he was sure I would enjoy it as I was a chess player......

[borealis]

Well, that was probably the best puzzle, crossword or other, I’ve ever done.
An hour short of the deadline (availability of next one), too.
I have a numbers system that I keep records with: 1-10 for difficulty, 1-10 for enjoyment. I’ve used it for about three years, and this is the first 10;10. Not just for the construction, the theme, the complexity which everyone has mentioned. There were some really brilliant clues which had me laughing (eventually). Thanks, Radix, wherever you are!

Now, contributions to debate:
Philoctetes: “I finished in more time than anyone else. Brilliant Puzzle. Wow.”
Staurologist: I’m a 3, but I don’t look here till I’m done, unless I’m stuck, just in case someone’s revealed something - if I do look I don’t submit. So I probably don’t add much to this site, but I really enjoy looking at it, and I have no problem with others getting nudges. Don’t much like the other site though - tend not to look there.
Crosswhit99: your comment could have used another real word, which would only have meant something to someone who had already had that pdm. I’ve been trying to think of one, which makes me realise just how clever the construction is!
JohnCox: Cryptic clues are an acquired taste to the newcomer of whatever age - almost no-one likes them at first. I hope that the cryptic preamble is the same for you; try another one!

[IainGrace]

Staurologist, don't demur from your comments generally. As for our first post, the query was really about whether "likewise" in the rubric was slightly loose drafting or deliberately ambiguous, but I recognise that giving even that information may be regarded by some as a hint too far.