What Is The Difference Between Nationalism And Patriotism?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

/// In Scotland, Wales and Ireland nationalism is the name given to the campaign for self-determination. James Connolly gave his life for the nationalist cause; John MacLean, perhaps the greatest leftwinger that Scotland has produced, was in favour of independence and campaigned for a Scottish parliament. ///

So it seems according to Billy Bragg, it is perfectly in order for Scotland, Wales and Ireland to be nationalistic, but not England because their nationalism is racism.

/// England’s dominant role has meant that it has never felt the urge to be free of the British state. As a result, the nationalism that has emerged there has been ethnic, seeking to unite the indigenous population against the perceived threat of outsiders. ///

[Old_Geezer]

I may be totally wrong but I interpret patriotism with the view that one has to support one's country, right or wrong: which I think is not a good thing as one ought to be able to dissent and try to change anything where a reasonable view would consider the authorities have it wrong. Nationalism is more about wanting to be an independent country, and taking pride in that, maybe ?

I think it is assumed England runs the show and all other countries are hard done by, but non-English individuals seem to have no problem holding high office at Westminster, and it can be argued England and the English gets the rough end of the stick when it comes to public spending and the like. London was lucky, it was in an ideal position for trade with Europe and I'm sure help build it into a prosperous Capital. The rest of the country won't have the same advantages.

[anotheoldgit]

I myself believe that Nationalism is a belief that one's country is the superior one, and Patriotism is the love of one's country, it's customs and heritage, and for wishing all that not to be changed in anyway.

[Old_Geezer]

I can see that as a possible pair of definitions, but I wonder then if the phrase "excess patriotism" has any value. Didn't Samuel Johnson say that patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel ? If it were pure love of something then that wouldn't follow.

[andy-hughes]

I would suggest thatthe nationalistic attitude of Scotland Wales and Ireland stems from their domination - at various times through history through to the present day - by England.

England, as the nominally superior nation has not needed to 'free' itself from the domination of another nation, so its nationalism has turned inward - towards protecting itself from perceived domination by immigrants.

That is how I interperet the wonderful Mr Bragg's words.

[sp1814]

AOG

Here you go:

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/

[sp1814]

AOG

But bravo for drawing our attention to this well thought out and intelligent piece by Billy Bragg.

I would have missed it.

[Peter Pedant]

what is the difference between stupidity and ignorance ?

surely they are connected ?

[ichkeria]

Billy Bragg is quite right: he's saying that because of the way the UK is made up, English "patriotism" has tended to be based on its association with "Britain" rather than "England" which has made it seem oppressive to the other nationalities. You should read "The Progressive Patriot" in which he makes a case ostensibly for a patriotism of the left, but which is really a compelling and moving description of his love for England.

[sp1814]

Peter Pedant

I would disagree...one can be ignorant, without being stupid.

However, if someone bases their opinions on their ignorance, then they will indeed be 'stupid'.

Good example - last year, someone on AB tried to claim that young British black, Asian and white kids all spoke with a West Indian 'patois' accent.

This was what the poster believed, but because they were ignorant of what West Indian accents actually sound like, in comparison to say, the accent of Adele, Tinie Tempah or Dizzie Rascal, all of whom share similar brogue constructs, they were simultaneously ignorant and stupid.

However, if they simply believed this, without trying to put it forward as a fact, they would simply be ignorant - not stupid.

[mikey4444]

Samuel Johnson once said that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" but I am not sure if that helps !

[Peter Pedant]

Ralph Waldo Emerson said - " the more a man talks of honour, the faster I count the knives ! "

does THAT help any ?

[mikey4444]

PP...we have both done our bit to raise the tone of the debate today ! Only a few more hours and we can all talk about something else...I can't wait !

[jim360]

Unless this is a resounding victory for the "No" vote, there is no way that the debate will end when the result is announced. And if it's a "yes" vote, then the debate will turn to "what independence?"

[dunnitall]

Mikey, me neither. Will be glad when this Scottish thing is all over. I hope what they get they deserve but not to the detriment of the Uk. As for the difference,I agree with OG and can see the point AOG is making. However, why is it that on any for one fills in, it only alludes to British not English but you can fill in for northern irish et al? Why is we are separate countries aren't we allowed to put in our nationality?

[mikey4444]

If its a NO vote jim, then Salmond can go boil his head for all I care.

[jim360]

You might think the same if it's a "yes" vote! But we're looking at a split in real terms of about 1.5 - 2 million people on each side of the vote. I doubt very much that they will all shut up about it once the vote happens.

[dunnitall]

Salmond is power mad afaic.

[anotheoldgit]

mikey4444

/// PP...we have both done our bit to raise the tone of the debate today ! Only a few more hours and we can all talk about something else...I can't wait ! ///

No you just duplicated what Old_Geezer put in his 14.13 post.