Dove, Perhaps, But Not Swallow (4,10)
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Scottish Free University Places
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Now that we know the results of the Scottish referendum, will DC keep his pledge & give the Scots more little jollies, & if so shouldn't our students at English Universities be given the same privileges that they get in Scotland ?
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Hear what you say NJ, but I don't believe university education should only be for the privileged few whose parents can afford it. If a student is bright enough to be given a place at university then they should be helped out financially if required.
18:21 Fri 19th Sep 2014
No.
Fewer people should go to University and those who do should pay for their education (as they should in Scotland). In 2013 49% of young people entered university education. Depending on who you believe, somewhere between 10% and 25% of jobs in the UK require education to degree level (even with the deflated secondary education currently provided by the State). This percentage is set to drop as the UK increases the percentage of its jobs which are low-skilled (one of the main reasons why average pay is decreasing).
This is clearly ridiculous and to provide Degree level education free of charge to large numbers of people who are never going to use it is a luxury the country (the whole of the country, that is, including Scotland) cannot afford.
Fewer people should go to University and those who do should pay for their education (as they should in Scotland). In 2013 49% of young people entered university education. Depending on who you believe, somewhere between 10% and 25% of jobs in the UK require education to degree level (even with the deflated secondary education currently provided by the State). This percentage is set to drop as the UK increases the percentage of its jobs which are low-skilled (one of the main reasons why average pay is decreasing).
This is clearly ridiculous and to provide Degree level education free of charge to large numbers of people who are never going to use it is a luxury the country (the whole of the country, that is, including Scotland) cannot afford.
The payments should be made in the same manner as in England now - only repayable when a certain salary level is reached and then deducted from pay. This would not restrict university to students from rich families.
This country (the UK, that is) is supposed to be trying to reduce the structural deficit. To provide free and often unnecessary and/or frivolous degree courses to any students (and the free tuition provided in Scotland is funded from UK tax income) is no way to reduce that deficit. A problem with the ridiculous devolution arrangements provided to Scotland (and to a lesser degree Wales and NI) is that situations such as this will prevail. It means that some people receive preferential treatment over others based simply on the fact that they live in a different part of the country.
This country (the UK, that is) is supposed to be trying to reduce the structural deficit. To provide free and often unnecessary and/or frivolous degree courses to any students (and the free tuition provided in Scotland is funded from UK tax income) is no way to reduce that deficit. A problem with the ridiculous devolution arrangements provided to Scotland (and to a lesser degree Wales and NI) is that situations such as this will prevail. It means that some people receive preferential treatment over others based simply on the fact that they live in a different part of the country.
Exactly the same, stoke.
Devolution provokes division, rancour and argument where none should exist. There is no need for devolved parliaments or assemblies. There are local authorities to deal with local matters (which is often troublesome enough). Scotland is not an independent nation. It is part of the UK and should be subject to the same terms and conditions as other parts of the country.
Devolution provokes division, rancour and argument where none should exist. There is no need for devolved parliaments or assemblies. There are local authorities to deal with local matters (which is often troublesome enough). Scotland is not an independent nation. It is part of the UK and should be subject to the same terms and conditions as other parts of the country.
Sadly, NJ, the genie is out of the bottle. I am totally against further devolution - as NJ says, we already have local tiers to handle local matters. Perhaps hope lies in the calls to change the Barnett formula - find some way to say that schemes like the prescription charges must be paid for (either in full or to above 50%) out of extra local taxation. See how popular the schemes are then! (But I also agree with MB, while stressing that the student should be capable of benefiting from a university education - with all that implies about selection, standards etc)
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I was against the votes for 16 year olds. Then I saw some discussions in a school and they seemed well informed, although the school was probably hand picked. I then watched the debate a couple of weeks ago with thousands of school children but all they seemed to want to talk Bout was would free tuition fees (something my grandchildren don't get) still be free. Then I saw N interview with 16 year old coming from a skateboard park who was asked his opinion. He said that the Tories were privatising the NHS so if he fell and broke a limb on his skateboard he wouldn't benBle to afford treatment!!!!! That just about sums it up!!!
No I did not.
But when I was educated only about 7% of people went to university. It was restricted to people who could cope with a rigorous academic course and the courses available were largely those which were needed for "the professions" or specialisations (although there was a sprinkling of what I considered obscure stuff such as "Classics" and "Philosophy". People taking those courses usually went on to become politicians or senior civil servants).
There is clearly absolutely no need for 50% of people to receive a university education (and whilst the country is so massively in debt it should be needs that receive prioity rather than wishes). Large numbers of those who go gain degrees in obscure and trivial subjects; large numbers of them end up disappointed because they are led to believe that the world will be their oyster once they have their 2:2 in Media Studies only to find themselves serving up burgers in McDonalds; most of them would have been better off taking a job and spending the three years learning about something which will equip them for the workplace.
The reason that university education had to have its funding model changed was that there was simply too great a demand for it with the results that I have outlined above. It was affordable when no more than about 10% of the population took degrees; it is obviously not so now. Of course there is the small matter that State secondary education is largely inadequate but that problem should be tackled at source and not dealt with by extending the time people spend in education in order to achieve a decent level.
But the most outrageous aspect as far as this question is concerned is that Scottish students are being provided with free tuition (as indeed are those from other EU nations) and those from the rest of the UK are not. This is a direct result of the ridiculous devolution arrangements that have been put in place. Scottish universities are funded from the UK's education budget, most of which comes from English taxpayers. It is simply not good enough to say that a portion of that is given to the Scots to spend as they please when they clearly discriminate against students from other parts of the UK especially when this is only achievable courtesy of the discredited (even by its designer) "Barnett Formula". If university tuition is to be free in any part of the UK it should be free across the UK and not just to a minority based upon where they live.
But when I was educated only about 7% of people went to university. It was restricted to people who could cope with a rigorous academic course and the courses available were largely those which were needed for "the professions" or specialisations (although there was a sprinkling of what I considered obscure stuff such as "Classics" and "Philosophy". People taking those courses usually went on to become politicians or senior civil servants).
There is clearly absolutely no need for 50% of people to receive a university education (and whilst the country is so massively in debt it should be needs that receive prioity rather than wishes). Large numbers of those who go gain degrees in obscure and trivial subjects; large numbers of them end up disappointed because they are led to believe that the world will be their oyster once they have their 2:2 in Media Studies only to find themselves serving up burgers in McDonalds; most of them would have been better off taking a job and spending the three years learning about something which will equip them for the workplace.
The reason that university education had to have its funding model changed was that there was simply too great a demand for it with the results that I have outlined above. It was affordable when no more than about 10% of the population took degrees; it is obviously not so now. Of course there is the small matter that State secondary education is largely inadequate but that problem should be tackled at source and not dealt with by extending the time people spend in education in order to achieve a decent level.
But the most outrageous aspect as far as this question is concerned is that Scottish students are being provided with free tuition (as indeed are those from other EU nations) and those from the rest of the UK are not. This is a direct result of the ridiculous devolution arrangements that have been put in place. Scottish universities are funded from the UK's education budget, most of which comes from English taxpayers. It is simply not good enough to say that a portion of that is given to the Scots to spend as they please when they clearly discriminate against students from other parts of the UK especially when this is only achievable courtesy of the discredited (even by its designer) "Barnett Formula". If university tuition is to be free in any part of the UK it should be free across the UK and not just to a minority based upon where they live.
No, kylesmum, the Scots manage are able to provide these concessions because they receive about £1,600 per head more in public spending than the English. This is more than enough to provide free tuition and free prescriptions. There is no justification for this and it is being provided courtesy of English taxpayers.
Unfortunately lobbying English MPs will make little difference because the three main party leaders, for some inexplicable reason, have pledged to keep this inequality. As you may have seen from some of my answers to other questions on this topic, I would like to have seen the Scots go their own way. But they chose not to and that's democracy. Unfortunately English voters have not been afforded similar democratic choices and the coming months will hopefully see this democratic gap addressed.
Unfortunately lobbying English MPs will make little difference because the three main party leaders, for some inexplicable reason, have pledged to keep this inequality. As you may have seen from some of my answers to other questions on this topic, I would like to have seen the Scots go their own way. But they chose not to and that's democracy. Unfortunately English voters have not been afforded similar democratic choices and the coming months will hopefully see this democratic gap addressed.
NJ; Many people such as you, (and I) received a free education, paid for by the older generation of taxpayers, when the standard of living was actually lower than it is now. The people griping about paying for young people now, and those who changed the rules in 1998 all had theirs free. Before the introduction of Tuition fees many women went to university at state expense, then married and brought up families, Would you consider their education was a 'waste'?
The better the education for everyone, and not just an elite few, the better and stronger will be the society. Scotland has it right and we should, if necessary, tighten our belts and follow suit.
The better the education for everyone, and not just an elite few, the better and stronger will be the society. Scotland has it right and we should, if necessary, tighten our belts and follow suit.
Can someone please e plain to me why other EU members can send their children to Scottish Universities free whilst the Englis (and I assume N Irish and Welsh) have to pay when we are all in the EU? Something drastically wrong here. Looks like Salmondites are going to get their cake and eat it after all with Devo Max. More autonomy, more of our money to subsidise things we can't afford, and the security of the Bank of England. Some deal. Wish they had bug.....d off! But then we would have ended up bailing them out when things on Planet fishes had gone belly up!
Because whilst Scotland cannot discriminate against students from other EU nations they can discriminate against students from other parts of the UK, linda. Fair on the English (who are, in the main,footing the bill)? I think not.
The situation decades ago was entirely different Khandro because only a very small minority of people went to University so it was affordable. Now, with 50% attending it is not, plain and simple. The country cannot afford to fund people for three years of "Meedju Studies" so that they can go on to fry burgers. But as I said, if such studies are free for Scottish students they should be free for all UK students.
The situation decades ago was entirely different Khandro because only a very small minority of people went to University so it was affordable. Now, with 50% attending it is not, plain and simple. The country cannot afford to fund people for three years of "Meedju Studies" so that they can go on to fry burgers. But as I said, if such studies are free for Scottish students they should be free for all UK students.
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