Quizzes & Puzzles0 min ago
Should We Take This French Mp's Advice And Introduce Id Cards?
33 Answers
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/// A leading French MP has blamed Britain's 'black jobs market' for attracting thousands of migrants to Calais, saying there is a 'problem with the English' that allows people to work in the UK without identity papers. ///
/// Former employment minister Xavier Bertrand challenged David Cameron to tackle the issue and accused him of hypocrisy because England 'have a cheap labour market because illegal immigrants are paid so much less'. ///
/// A leading French MP has blamed Britain's 'black jobs market' for attracting thousands of migrants to Calais, saying there is a 'problem with the English' that allows people to work in the UK without identity papers. ///
/// Former employment minister Xavier Bertrand challenged David Cameron to tackle the issue and accused him of hypocrisy because England 'have a cheap labour market because illegal immigrants are paid so much less'. ///
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How are ID cards going to help combat the "black jobs" market?
By definition this is an area that flouts regulation.
Unscrupulous employers already ignore the NI requirements.
In principle I am not against them if they will help, but I was put off the idea when I lived in France as theoretically you were supposed to carry one wherever you went which struck me as a bit of an inconvenience to say the least. Of course in practice no one did.
ID cards are a good idea for people who don't/can't have passports or other forms of ID, but otherwise why should I have to fork out £60 or more for another piece of plastic? This doubling and trebling up shouldn't be necessary in these days of biometrics and "joined up" IT
By definition this is an area that flouts regulation.
Unscrupulous employers already ignore the NI requirements.
In principle I am not against them if they will help, but I was put off the idea when I lived in France as theoretically you were supposed to carry one wherever you went which struck me as a bit of an inconvenience to say the least. Of course in practice no one did.
ID cards are a good idea for people who don't/can't have passports or other forms of ID, but otherwise why should I have to fork out £60 or more for another piece of plastic? This doubling and trebling up shouldn't be necessary in these days of biometrics and "joined up" IT
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For once I tend to agree with ichkeria. During WW2 we had ID cards and no-one minded much, they were necessary and people had few other ways of confirming their identity.
In France I had to carry lots of identification stuff around. E.G. You were supposed to carry your 'carte gris' - log book - in your car in our departement (other departements differed) which meant that if anyone stole your car then they had the papers to go with it! So you carted them around your person when you got out of your car, or you were supposed to. I didn't bother in the end - kept a photocopy of documents in car and left real ones at home, which was technically illegal, but would have bought me a sympathetic hearing.
More to the point - an ID card would promote a flourishing market in forgeries and employers etc. would ask no more than a glimpse of said card. Even to get a library card last month I had to produce proof of identity and residence. I've just handed in my application for a bus pass and have had to add proof of age to those documents. Far harder for anyone to have to forge/obtain all of these things. In my case I even had to add a copy of our marriage licence to prove change of name because passport is in maiden name. Weary sigh :)
In France I had to carry lots of identification stuff around. E.G. You were supposed to carry your 'carte gris' - log book - in your car in our departement (other departements differed) which meant that if anyone stole your car then they had the papers to go with it! So you carted them around your person when you got out of your car, or you were supposed to. I didn't bother in the end - kept a photocopy of documents in car and left real ones at home, which was technically illegal, but would have bought me a sympathetic hearing.
More to the point - an ID card would promote a flourishing market in forgeries and employers etc. would ask no more than a glimpse of said card. Even to get a library card last month I had to produce proof of identity and residence. I've just handed in my application for a bus pass and have had to add proof of age to those documents. Far harder for anyone to have to forge/obtain all of these things. In my case I even had to add a copy of our marriage licence to prove change of name because passport is in maiden name. Weary sigh :)
"If they needed to, the authorities could check on everywhere you have been this month,..."
Not me, they couldn't, jayne. I turn my phone on when I need to make a call (perhaps two or three times a month) and turn it off immediately afterwards. If people are daft enough to roam about carrying a mobile tracking device permanently turned on that's for them to decide.
Not me, they couldn't, jayne. I turn my phone on when I need to make a call (perhaps two or three times a month) and turn it off immediately afterwards. If people are daft enough to roam about carrying a mobile tracking device permanently turned on that's for them to decide.
I only need my phone, Mikey, to (very) occasionally contact other people (usually Mrs NJ to ask her to put the kettle on or to get the G&T ready, depending on the hour). Now and again I contact my drinking partners if my train is late and I won't make it for the first pint. Only about six or seven people have my number and occasionally when I'm out I'll leave it switched on if I'm meeting people (so that they can ring me if their train is late).
Works a treat. Top it up with twenty quid perhaps twice a year if I've used it a lot. Nobody troubles me with inane drivel. All conversations are short and sweet and to the point. and aside benefit is that the spooks cannot track my movements!
Works a treat. Top it up with twenty quid perhaps twice a year if I've used it a lot. Nobody troubles me with inane drivel. All conversations are short and sweet and to the point. and aside benefit is that the spooks cannot track my movements!
That's more or less how I use my mobile phone NJ. It can be used to make and receive phone calls, that's all. I got it many years ago (the kids call it my 'brick') because as an athletics coach I was often left alone, lateish after the last of my athletes had gone home, in areas of cities that weren't totally safe. I rest amazed about how you are supposed to use your phone for this and that these days.
I have to say I wonder if said MP was correctly quoted because I think it much more likely that the UK reporter seized on the UK's fobia-ridden reaction to ID cards whereas he very possibly had a national register in mind. On that assumption I am convinced the French MP was correct. ID cards are not really the point - a national register makes it possible and very easy to get a card for your convenience if you want, where national registers exist it is not necessarily compulsory to have an ID card.
My son recently moved to Denmark and it took him just over an hour to complete his registration there, about forty five minutes of which was waiting his turn at the office in question where he was signed up to a GP as well. Upon registering he is also on the tax collector's books. Armed with his registration details he completed his rental contract (open ended with the rent increases listed for the coming decade and more), established his bank account, utility contracts, etc., etc. all in the space of another hour or so. Conversely, without his registration he could do none of these things, even as a non-resident he would have to register to get a job, a bank account, etc.
In the UK there is no national register and completing the above things takes an inordinately long and tedious process relying on such prosaic things as utility bills (a bit of the chicken and egg sometimes), etc., etc.
The UK is a disjointed administrative mess because it has never tackled its problems head on, instead relying on patchwork incremental solutions (the sticking plaster approach) until the next detail becomes a screaming problem and then applying another plaster. Since Denmark (which has a national register) outperforms the UK (which doesn't have one) on pretty much every worthwhile criterion, having a national register is certainly not causing harm - and people there certainly feel every bit as free as anyone in the UK. By comparison the discussion on immigration into Denmark is very straight forward and does not take place in the same fog and guesswork, where the facts are vague/unclear, massaged and disputed in every political direction, as in the UK.
My son recently moved to Denmark and it took him just over an hour to complete his registration there, about forty five minutes of which was waiting his turn at the office in question where he was signed up to a GP as well. Upon registering he is also on the tax collector's books. Armed with his registration details he completed his rental contract (open ended with the rent increases listed for the coming decade and more), established his bank account, utility contracts, etc., etc. all in the space of another hour or so. Conversely, without his registration he could do none of these things, even as a non-resident he would have to register to get a job, a bank account, etc.
In the UK there is no national register and completing the above things takes an inordinately long and tedious process relying on such prosaic things as utility bills (a bit of the chicken and egg sometimes), etc., etc.
The UK is a disjointed administrative mess because it has never tackled its problems head on, instead relying on patchwork incremental solutions (the sticking plaster approach) until the next detail becomes a screaming problem and then applying another plaster. Since Denmark (which has a national register) outperforms the UK (which doesn't have one) on pretty much every worthwhile criterion, having a national register is certainly not causing harm - and people there certainly feel every bit as free as anyone in the UK. By comparison the discussion on immigration into Denmark is very straight forward and does not take place in the same fog and guesswork, where the facts are vague/unclear, massaged and disputed in every political direction, as in the UK.
TTT, thank you for sharing your view of me.
I can live with your perspective of me but when you know a family member is a serial drink driver and tax dodger it is difficult to not smile at their squirming when they scream and shout like a toddler about how their privacy is being invaded.
If that makes me nasty then so be it.
I can live with your perspective of me but when you know a family member is a serial drink driver and tax dodger it is difficult to not smile at their squirming when they scream and shout like a toddler about how their privacy is being invaded.
If that makes me nasty then so be it.
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