religion & marriage. does anyone see the connection??

[Headless Rat]

Hi ABers, I've been reading the recently posed questions on the "M" word and it has struck me that no reference has ever been made to the word "religion" when discussing the topic of marriage.

To me this is bizarre.

I just wonder if anybody else thesedays sees religion as wholly inter-twined with marriage, a commitment made to each other before God to stay together forever, a promise to bring one's children up ( if applicable) to follow the faith or is marriage just seen as a chance to further one's relationship, to take "the next step", and have a big party?

Should marriage not be valued as infinitely more sacred then just co-habiting with the next boy/girlfriend that comes along??

In my opinion it should be, but I'm interested to know what others think!

Good Irish Catholic girl here- if you haven't already guessed!

[RevShirls]

Marge, I don't dispute that at all and I don't dispute that certain types or else factions within a religion can change people for the worse (tragically and frighteningly so in the example you cite). My point is that other groupings apart from religious ones can also do this such as racist and anarchisitic groupings too - even mainstram political parties with narrow subsections within them.

Interesting the way that this discussion about marriage has gone :) I need to stop here. Tea-time! We're an hour ahead of UK (here in Sweden)

[Clanad]

Having participated in a number of these exchanges, especially with MargeB, and others, I'm always taken somewhat aback by the seeming bitterness and vitriol expressed by non-believers.  I've witnessed, for example, MargeB's humor and wit on other subjects, but bring up religion and the rant begins. Surprisingly, well known factual information concerning the historical validity of Scripture, the break down of once revered Darwinian suppositions, scientific evidence of a beginning of the universe and other information that, at the very least, should cause any thinking person to revisit their opinions on the existence of God, especially the God of Judaeo/Christian Scripture, is shouted down out of hand by atheists.  A few of the things I have a difficult time getting around are:  Humans are the most purpose driven creatures on Earth... everything done, thought or percieved is for a purpose, yet atheists insist on maintaining that, in the end there is no purpose to our existence.  Additionally, what solace, what comfort can an atheist derive.  Fact is, everyone, without fail, believes in something.  Atheists choose to be their own god(s) and proof of this is their insistance there is no God... when they can't possibly know that.  My own belief in Yashua Ha Mashiach doesn't derive from Roman Catholicism or any other mainline works related system, but any thinking person can easily find that the vast majority of injustice and murders done in history had nothing to do with any religion.  That doesn't ameliorate those that were done in the name of religion, but they pale when compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Genghis Kahn, etc., etc. 

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

I would like to engage in these exchanges, but the rancor on the side of the atheists make sit difficult to engage in civil discourse, and causes one to wonder why they are so, well... angry... In my humble opinion...

[El D]

Well Headless . . . nah it's too easy

Well Clanad I certainly did not expect you to appear on this question.
Ah yes the twin pillars of your beliefs, the historical accuracy of the bible and flaws in Darwinian theories. Well it's true that there are several events in the bible which appear to be confirmed through hard evidence - as one would expect from documents written in retrospective analysis. However you seem to make an elementary mistake on your evaluation of the bible as a histroical source by equating the correctness of some facts with correctness of these people's beliefs regarding supernatural occurences and the like. A town is a town whatever age it appears in, but miracles seem in short supply these days. The conclusion is obvious.

As for Darwin, there are flaws yes, inevitably so in the theory of evolution. I guess we should give up on it as we know everything. It still represents the most logical analysis of our beginnings, more so than the abandonment of reason and the embrace of some tribal suggestion that some being currenly in absentia made us and . . . oh wait this is all open to interpretation isn't it?

As for purpose, well I am afraid I must disagree. Humans are no more driven than other creatures - pleasure and pain are all the drive we get I'm afraid. This seems remarkable similar to the other animals. Merely because we disguise these drives in complex social and personal modus operandi doesn't lessen this fact. The purpose of our existence is to exist and procreate. I need no mystical notions of giant fairies to enjoy life - this is a solace in itself. I am free to do as I please with no recriminations apart from those I impose on myself through actions carried out with full prior knowledge.

[El D]

Agreed, I can't possible know there is no god, however I see no reason to suppose one. This is the fundamental distinction you miss. If god wants me to believe, he knows what he must do - if he doesn't, he isn't the god described in the xstian ethos. Either way I see no need to inject X where there is no equation :)

Discourse away my humble friend

[mfewell]

Excellent and moving words Clanad, it's always a delight to read you. People can go into manic mode when religion comes up. For my part, I can only say that I seek constantly for something that, well, my soul craves. Not a scientific word, but what else can describe those tingles and inner voices.  All human beings have an innate fear of annihilation, that is scientifically documented. Few of us can cope with the notion of ending, gone, finito, full stop. We can cope with the truth of having never existed at a given time, say 1800, but as to ending...... So the thesis therefore is that we invented religion. I choose to think otherwise, and I can't help but be moved by drinking of eternal water. It is so uncomplicated and it just goes to my guts. Explain that. Brainwashed am I ? Maybe, but I don't think so, and after all, I could be right ?

[mfewell]

p.s. Clanad, are you in the USA ? And thanks for spelling out 'in my humble opinion' instead of the horrible IMHO jargon.

[MargeB]

Well said, El D.

Clanad, I'll speak my mind as I see fit. Present me with something resembling reason and I'll enter debate with you. Nothing you have said in any way advances support for your position.

I recommend that you take a neutral position, then try to find the answer, instead of jumping to a conclusion based on emotion, then trying to defend it against any reason.

[mfewell]

Dear MargeB, you are prepared to engage those whom you agree with, but not those you don't. Are you reluctant to engage in broadsides with non-brainwashed people who believe in God. Religion was not intended to have scientific reason, and just because 'science' has 'disproved' it does not move the human state forward. MargeB, I ask you, and please think seriously about it for a mo, what is your life for, and what is going to happen to your feelings, your loves, your whole essence, when you die ?

Jesus said some really hard things, like we should be loving the people who are bombing London.

[MargeB]

I don't know. Maybe it'll all end with my death. Maybe it won't. Maybe time is an illusion and my life just perpetuates right here, in a loop, my past never ended. I would prefer it to go on forever. I would miss the world and being human too much, I've grown fond of it, even with ups and downs.

Not sure how what I think of that affects the existence of God and the truth of Jesus though. I look out into the twilight sky and I see nothing, yet it is insisted that there is some Person behind it all who conjured it from nothing and who cares about what happens to me. Yet there is no direct evidence I can see whatsoever that shows he exists. Yet there is evidence that would make me think that a caring creator doesn't exist: another couple of million of his beautiful creation about to go out aged 6 months because he forgot to feed them. And crucially, a huge question mark hangs over the creation of the universe, and he's quite happy to leave that question mark there.

I see nothing. You see nothing. Yet you say to me, there is something. The onus, my friend, is on you to show me why you think there is something, not on me to explain to you the nothing that is staring you in the face.

[lizzierose]

can i just say that not participating in this discussion particularly. that anger is not just coming from the atheists side.and not condoning condom use in aids ridden countries is bloody ridiculous. people can have sex with more than one partner wihtout it being labelled "sh**ging each others brains out" and certainly do not deserve to die horribly and slowly from such a devastating disease as aids. never saw the problem with sex outside of marriage myself between two consenting adults. its good fun. why all the abstension? why not do things which you enjoy doing if it doesn't hurt anyone else?

[mfewell]

Dear MargeB, I don't feel any onus of any kind to explain anything to you at all. You won't see God by gazing into the night sky, you'll just see eternity light-years in the past. You are not going to drive truth away by hiding behind science, the arrogance of man believing that he has 'sussed' it all. Please give me an explanation as to how evolution could come up with a spider that lives underwater and takes bubbles of air down with it. Anyway, best of wishes, the eternal discussion, never to be resolved.

[MargeB]

It wasn't evolution. It was God. God knew the spider would need air down there in the water, so he taught it to take down little bubbles. That's the same God that just happened to forget to feed half of Africa again this year. "What father, when asked by his child for a loaf, would give him a stone?" Go and preach that to some poor woman who's just lost her fourth child to famine because God was busy designing scuba gear for the insect population.

That vitriolic enough for you Clanad? Or have you scurried away again in the face of insurmountable evidence?

[Clanad]

Ahh... the arrival of the inestimable EL D... greetings.  Gee, MargeB, I do have a life outside of this web site, so scurrying wasn't my intentions.  Insurmountable evidence?  I haven't seen any evidence yet... unless it's your leg pulling flat earth scam a few months back...

 By the way mfewell, thanks for the kind words, and yes I am an American... You've cut right to the heart of the matter... it's the heart that is changed, not the mind... at least not initially....

[MargeB]

lol, you're the best, Clanad, I'm sorry I'll probably never meet you in the outside world.

[Headless Rat]

EL D, your affected arrogance and nescience is amusing!

Ar aon nos a chara,nil dabht ar bith ann gur feicfidh me thu ar la Philip a Chleite!!

Figure out what that means, seeing as you think yourself so smart!Happy hunting!

[El D]

haha yes well affected arrogance does amuse me. As for nescience, well that is a clever word. I suspect it is bandied around in your religious circles.

As for your translation, I'm smart enough not to bother trying to translate it. Personally I think it's rather rude to talk in another language. Is it Gaelic? I hope it's rather witty and amusing or it will be such a let down.

[mfewell]

Marge don't hold the state of Africa at God's door. As I see it in the coming of JC, God was making his final statement to mankind, by coming here and letting us murder him. Greater love hath no man etc. There are problems of course, one of which is that if JC knew in advance that he would be back on the third day then being crucified wouldn't have been so 'bad'. But I have my own interpretation of the words 'My god my god why have you forsaken me' What if at that moment JC was absolutely on his own, unexpectedly, no comforts, no nothing at all, deserted by god and compelled to take on all the badness of all time. That's how I read it, and when you've pondered on it a bit it's almost beyond our comprehension. So I think the statement has been made once and for all, and it is man that is f-----g up Africa. Sorry for this so early in the day. Have a good weekend.

[Headless Rat]

yes EL D, nescience is a jolly nice word indeed.Glad you agree, old boy.You have to look it up before you understood it?Ah, there's hope yet!

Have to add that the way you so callously said "bandying it around religious circles" cut real deep, man.Endeavouring to ridicule me when i ain't even part of such a "circle" , well, hhhmmmm, enough said there!

As for the "Gaelic" (we Irish prefer to refer to it simply as the Irish language, but hey, whatever), well i'm afraid to disappoint you; it ain't funny really, in my opinion anyway, it just means i'll see you on Judgement Day!

And as for apparently being too smart to bother translate it?you afraid to learn something new?knowledge is power afterall, my friend!

By gum, i AM tremenduously glad to have started this heated and enlightening debate on this topic as it has led me into conversation with such experts on a subject which, admittedly we will never know the real answer to except when it is too late i.e. we're dead and our toes cocked six feet under!

I suppose it's all down to one's faith and strength of.why feel the need to disparage anyone else's beliefs?

 

Amusing really.

[MargeB]

God is supposedly all powerful. So he creates millions of people in Africa, and its not that the west just wandered in to Niger and stole all their food, these people were born into a land without enough water to grow anything to feed themselves. Can you not see that this is concrete evidence that the loving God you describe cannot possibly exist? If he was a loving God, he would intervene and feed them. Religious jokers, forever trying to 'convince me' by shoehorning ridiculous arguments like 'oh, it must be the evil of man' when clearly it is not.

This, my friend, is what I mean by brainwashing. Your brain has been taken over by something akin to a virus, and no amount of reasoning will ever make you see sense unless by some kind of miracle. "The heart is converted first." Well, I'm sorry, but 4 people who "had their hearts converted first" just walked on to a train in the very beautiful City yesterday and for the sake of the same nonsensical 'belief' principle decided to try and take out a bunch of my townsmen. Same madness, different flavour. Your time is up!