religion & marriage. does anyone see the connection??

[Headless Rat]

Hi ABers, I've been reading the recently posed questions on the "M" word and it has struck me that no reference has ever been made to the word "religion" when discussing the topic of marriage.

To me this is bizarre.

I just wonder if anybody else thesedays sees religion as wholly inter-twined with marriage, a commitment made to each other before God to stay together forever, a promise to bring one's children up ( if applicable) to follow the faith or is marriage just seen as a chance to further one's relationship, to take "the next step", and have a big party?

Should marriage not be valued as infinitely more sacred then just co-habiting with the next boy/girlfriend that comes along??

In my opinion it should be, but I'm interested to know what others think!

Good Irish Catholic girl here- if you haven't already guessed!

[MargeB]

Jake! You have a go.

[mfewell]

Marge, no good chucking in the towel or passing it on. You have to face and cope with the likes of me. Fact is that many many intelligent and thinking people have looked at this and come down on the the side of Christ. If you'll let me iLL

[mfewell]

Marge, no good chucking in the towel or passing it on. You have to face and cope with the likes of me. Fact is that many many intelligent and thinking people have looked at this and come down on the the side of Christ. If you'll let me I#ll

[mfewell]

Marge, no good chucking in the towel or passing it on. You have to face and cope with the likes of me. Fact is that many many intelligent and thinking people have looked at this and come down on the the side of Christ. If you'll let me I#'ll

[MargeB]

This is not reasoned debate.

[MargeB]

You make the mistaken assumption that access to truth depends on where one falls in the continuum from least intelligent to most intelligent. Those who appear most intelligent (e.g. University professors) should have their opinions on a wide range of subjects, on and off their topic, accepted because of their assumed 'intelligence level.' This just does not stand up to scrutiny. University professors of psychology normally have ideas of the evolution of mankind that run directly in opposition to those of many Theology professors. How do you wish to reconcile this?

More importantly, you cannot simply place them on an 'intelligence continuum' that applies to all things. These are human beings, not computers. Their minds operate on schemas, not on computer code. Simply because they excel in acquiring and synthesizing knowledge in one domain does not mean that they will be adept in another. Many very bright men will refuse to accept the truth even by their own criteria of judgment, and when it is staring them in the face.

[Clanad]

Is there an echo in here, MargeB... that's precisely what I said... you've, on occassion at least, expressed brightness, yet you fail to see the truth when it's right in front of you. The reference to the educated men who are believers was advanced to indicate the fallacy of the accusation that Christians are fallow, unkempt louts that drag their knuckles on the ground and drool.  I have looked at the same universe that you have and yet you see hopelessness, emptiness, no cause for existence. Whereas I see the hand of God and His magnificient love for His creation... especially the jewel in the crown, humanity.  We became separated from that love, but He made a way back for us by sacrificing Himself to satisfy His justness.  But, as has been stated, although it's a completely free gift, it's yours to accept or deny.  In the end, it's not God that condems anyone, He simply gives you what you want... eternity free of Him.  Here we are, a simple thread asking a rather innocous question, but because that question involves God, it has gone on for almost 100 responses in just a day or so.  Why? Because the recognition of God is placed in each heart.   One can choose to deny that and hurl insults on Him and those that have chosen to believe, but, at the end of the day, it's you and your brethern that wonder about the choice you've made, especially after you've turned the lights out for the night... Sleep well...

[delilahcat]

MargeB, I'll have a go but I know it's a hopeless case. It's not really possible to argue with people who have been conditioned to accept religious dogma as they will remain convinced they're right no matter what evidence you produce.

Mike, I notice you answered part of my posting but chose to ignore the part about the tsunami. That's okay, I'm used to believers in God picking and choosing the bits they like and ignoring the parts that don't fit.

To answer your question, where do I start? The Catholic church continues to hang on to outdated practices that cause disease, untold misery and countless deaths. They continue to tell the poorest nations on earth that contraception is wrong despite the obviously disastrous effect this has. The reason is not because it is 'unnatural' (so are aeroplanes, TVs, cars, in fact any number of modern inventions that Catholic leaders are happy to make use of), it is so that they always have a huge number of faithful to continue the lies. If contraception is wrong because it is unnatural, why is it ok to use unnatural methods to conceive? Why did the then Pope send a telegram of congratulations to the parents of the Walton sextuplets after they used fertility treatment to conceive?

The Catholic church has done little or nothing to stop the widespread child abuse in its midst. They no doubt accept that such practices are inevitable among males who have been forced into an unnatural way of life (and before anyone says they choose to be priests, yes, but many of them would welcome a change to this ridiculous and outmoded rule.)

[delilahcat]

(cont)

Headless Rat has suggested that we should all do more to help the poorest people of the world. I agree - though having no religious beliefs, I give to 6 different charities on a monthly basis. Unfortunately though, I am not fabulously wealthy and so there is a limit to the amount of good I can do. But I can think of one organisation (the richest landowner in the world) which probably could save millions of lives if they sold even one percent of their assets and used the proceeds for the good of humanity. Can you guess which organisation that is? It's an organisation whose leaders live in luxury while the vast majority of its followers live in abject poverty. Its an organisation that sells tat at inflated prices (have you visited the shops in the Vatican?) to swell its already groaning coffers.

 I could go on for pages but the God-believers will only say I have 'inner anger'. Actually, the emotion that stirs me most when discussing religion is sadness - deep sorrow for the starving and suffering millions who are told that it's all 'God's great plan' and that though they can't see a reason for it now it will all become clear eventually.
That sadness extends to the Muslim teachers who tell children as young as 5 that ANYTHING they do in the name of their religion is good. That's why these children become suicide bombers when they're barely out of their teens - by then they've had the lies poured into them for so long that they have no free will left, just hate against anyone who doesn't believe what they do.
This sadness extends to the Jews who think that God wants them to cut off a part of every 8-day old baby boy and throw it away! Why would God make a boy and expect the parents to cut a bit off??
I'm sorry, NONE of it makes any sense. But I know I have not the slightest chance of getting through to any of the faithful. Had to give it a go, though.

[delilahcat]

Have a look at this lovely company here -

http:// target='_blank' href="http://www.catholichomeloan/aboutus.htm">www.catholichomeloan/aboutus.htm

Note that they donate 15% of their profits to charity. I wonder where the other 85% goes?

[delilahcat]

Sorry, try this:

www.catholichomeloan.com

[Otrere]

One of my friends was insistent in getting married in church as she wanted to be married in the eyes of God.

I personally did not want to get married in church as I don't believe in God myself and thought I'd be a hypocrite and so we had a civil ceremony.

Although in the eyes of people who are believers will say that my marriage has not been blessed by God I can assure you that I take my marriage very seriously - I would not simply commit to someone for the rest of my life (as that is what I intend and hope this marriage to be) and certainly don't consider it as "just cohabiting with the next boy/girlfriend that comes along".

[MargeB]

mfewell, did you computer break?

[MargeB]

I don't actually believe that the brainwashed are beyond recovery. I was extremely committed to religion and as brainwashed as you can be, but a series of events put me in a position to weigh everything up fully. Clanad, certain things, like not having a distinct 'heaven' to aim at become missed for a while, rather like a heroin addict misses his shots on the road to recovery. Having said that, I do consider breaking free from religion to be probably the best thing that ever happened to me, and I know the odds were stacked against me. I have intimate knowledge of the kind of experience that believers posting here are going through, and I know that nothing can be broken down in the way that someone who held a scientific belief would break it down in the face of criticism. Unfortunately, you are ultimately victims of the 'human condition', where others have managed to become free from it. I deeply and bitterly regret, however, the years of my life which I utterly wasted due to religion. If I was asked to give up maybe one or two years of my life to serve those who were daring enough to laugh at my beliefs at the time, and offered me basically a chance out of the nonsense, I would give those years, since they have broken me from those chains. Clanad, what you believe is utter nonsense. I know why you tend to think it is 'true', but you are locked in a belief system that your head will not shake off.

[Clanad]

Well, one last try for delilahcat... Firstly, I'm not a Roman Catholic or member of any mainline denomination, however.. seems to me I remember a small lady named Teresa...spent her entire life (nearly 69 years), gladly at that, living and working among the slums in Calcutta.  I personally support a young couple with three children who have devoted their lives to be missionaries in Angola.  The young lady's sister and family are also missionaries in Kenya.  In addition to bringing the Good News they set up clinics in rural areas, help with education and care about HIV/AIDS, and help educate the children.  The majority of relief efforts in, not only Africa, but South America and every other impoverishied country in the world, are religious based... mostly Christian. Billions (with a b) of dollars are spent each year by charities that are funded entirely from donations of caring Christians. I don't know of even one atheist based children's relief society or other such help. Perhaps you do...

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

Tsunami.... hmmm.... Science explains that life could not exist on this planet without the phenomena of plate tectonics. The fact of plate tectonics (as well as nearly 300 other specific factors) is required to produce and sustain all life.  The results of movements of the plates causes damage, such as the tsunamis.  Interestingly enough, a group of primitive natives in the news following the Indonesian tsunami, recognized what was happening from years, no centuries, of experience.  They moved to higher ground and not one tribal member was lost.  In contrast, tourists and others who did not have such wisdom actually went out into the the bays as the water first receded and were caught by the insurge.  Seems to me that God's phenomena of plate tectonics, provided to give life support for humans (and other life) and in place for millions of years did not overrule human's free will to engage in such foolish activity.  Sadly, many were children... but this wasn't God's doing.  Good and evil do exist, but it is man free will to choose between them that is the ultimate cause of his problems...

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

You once again, provide the tired old cliche' that believers are "conditioned to accept religious dogma"... I'm sure that among the millions of believers, there are those that do so based on tradition only. But most of my acquaintances who accept the truth of Yeshua Ha Maschiac, are men and women of considerable thoughtfulness and intelligence, and have given equal time to both sides of the argument and have come to the conclusion that to not believe, considering the extreme weight of the evidence, is far more difficult than to not believe.

Will this change your mind... I don't expect so, nor am I trying to do that. I'm only suggesting that it's your own knee-jerk reaction to things you believe that produces the antagonism so evident in your diatribe. In truth, it's you and your cohorts that are indoctrinated in anti-Christian and pseudo-scientific dogma, when you really haven't investigated either...

[delilahcat]

Clanad, how could you possibly know what I have and haven't researched? Are you clairvoyant as well as religious?

In fact I have studied many different world religions - that is why I can tell you the facts I referred to in my previous posts. Where is your answer as to why 5-year-old Muslims are told that anything they do in the name of their religion is right? Why do you not reply as to why the Catholic church continues to encourage the births of millions of children that the world cannot feed?

Yes, SOME religious individuals do good - so do many non-religious people. But talk to the women who were brought up in orphanages run by sadistic nuns. They will tell you how they were abused physically and mentally - many of them will never lead normal lives because of this. If you want to talk about individuals, let's talk about the Bishop of Galway, Eamonn Casey, who fathered a child and then abandoned both the child and the mother, after using church funds to buy the mother's silence. Or what about Ireland's lovely 'singing priest', Father Michael Cleary, who fathered 2 children by his housekeeper, a girl who had been a victim of incest and who had spent years in orphanages and psychiatric hospitals. At the age of 17, she had turned to Father Cleary for help but got only a life of physical and mental abuse, including being forced by Cleary to give up her first child for adoption.

As to non-Christian relief agencies, have you never heard of UNICEF? Medicins sans frontieres? Water Aid?

[Clanad]

I sense, delilahcat  and MargeB, that we've reached the useful end to this debate.  But delilahcats post requires a brief response... I'm sure you would agree that in any human endeavor we observe those that act contrary to the aims and goals of that endeavor.  No less so with the cases you describe.  However, it is no less true that individual actions, no matter how hypocritical, are not representative of the aims and goals.  We can exchange, ad infinitum, examples of the worst and best of anything and it won't change a thing in the way you or I believe (or disbelieve). MargeB, your testimony can only be matched by my own and many, many friends and acquaintences whose lives have been radically changed by our meeting, one on One with the Christ.  My suspicion is that you/ve had a bad experience with religion... and I'm here to tell you that I'm probably the least religious person you could meet.  Knowing Yeshua is not religion, it's a relationship.  I would in closing ask only one thing... If I'm right and you are wrong... who's the better off?  I can only suggest that you revisit the evidence... completely independent of religion...however, I think that was a door I heard slamming.  Best wishes...

[MargeB]

Clanad, the difference is that I know why you believe what you believe but you do not know why I believe what I believe.

Science in its very broadest sense as a measured and disciplined approach to the facts of the world around us is a difficult and demanding task to do correctly. It is not available to all. It involves a systematic approach from the ground up, with a very clear philosophical understanding of its foundations and principles. This is NOT the same as picking up the odd piece of information here and there.

What I see very very commonly is people considering themselves to be in an 'enlightened' position with regards to science, and proceeding from there to arrive at conclusions about god. In actual fact, had they proceeded with proper enquiry, it would be clear to them that other, less mystical explanations are appropriate.