My God, My God, why have you forsaken me ?

[mfewell]

Words from the cross by Christ. Can I add a tilt to them. They are supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT, but what if, when Christ uttered them from the cross, that they were more than that and utterly true, i.e. God the Father had momentarily forsaken his son ? Imagine for a moment that Christ in hanging there did indeed take all the badness of all time on his shoulders ? Can you imagine a pain any worse and a love any higher ? Just a thought, but by heck it sticks with me.

[Jude123]

Lefox I dont think you can just say 'you are all wrong' so adamantly. I think it's ok to say 'I don't agree with you and have different beliefs and I respect the fact that yours are different from mine'  You can meet hundreds of people with different beliefs who are very good people.I was Christened in the Church of England but have  many questions about it that I haven't had satisfactory answers to. I think religions are just a way people have of helping them get through their lives as I've said before.

[Clanad]

With all due respect, lefox, I have a flash for you... there is a G-d, and you're not Him.  See, the problem with making statements (and believing them) that there is no god infers that you are omniscient... which, if true, would make you god.  You're certainly welcome to you opinions, but you have no factual, definable truth on which to build you're suppositions.  I know, I know... you are already formulating, as does El D the respopnse (already suggested in your statement "Who has ever seen Jesus on the cross...") But, fact is I hold eyewitness testimony to Him not only being on the cross and dying, but living again.  You, of course, don't accept that testimony... again your perogative... but many educated, credentialed investigators have studied the same evidence I have and reached the conclusion that it is not only reliable, but even more so than those few ancient texts that exist from the past.  I could, once again, give you all the scientific evidence for the Bible's authenticity and what makes it so extremely unique among all

[Jude123]

With all due respect Clanad you sound just as adamant as Lefox and whatever you both have to say you are never going to agree. I know this is just a discussion and we are all entitled to our opinions but to come across as quite so bigotted as you two do then wouldn't it be better to be a bit kinder to each other.

[Clanad]

Hmmm... don't know what happened... but, as I was saying... the books ever written, but that would have no impact on you... at least not now, maybe never.  You rely on what you think you know, a trait often attributed to believers.  If one wants to truly investigate the facts then one can come to a conclusion, maybe even the conclusion already believed.  Just don't be so arrogant as to accuse me of cleverness.  I have no intent to convert anyone and no expectation of that occurring.  I do intend, as Peter instructs, "... to always be ready to give a defense [apologian] to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.�

Unfortunately, you're  statement about giving up my seat in heave, etc., is unaswerable.  Simply because it's not mine to give.  If it were, you'd have it in a flash.  But, it's already been paid for for you, if you choose to accept it.  Secondly, you accuse G-d of changing, when all of Scripture attets to His unchangeability.  You see, you engage in the fallacy of attributing human qualities to G-d.  At any rate, thanks for your views...

[Clanad]

Jude123, I have no intent of being  viewed as arrogant or aggressively adamant, only  persistent.  I really don't know how to word things any differently and still maintain the integrity of my position. You see, one can water down the message so much as to make it completely ineffectual.  I defend the historical factualness of Scripture and can, I believe, make an excellent case for it's validity. Once one believes the historic nature of the Bible, then you're faced with the question of "What do I do with it now?"  But that being received as such by another is dependant on one applying the same basis for judgement that's applicable to any thing else in life.  People usually condemn the witness of the Bible but readily accept the truthfulness of, say Josephus or Tacitus when the evidence overwhelmingly supports Scripture.  It (Scripture) is discounted because it deals with... well... those G-d thingys. 

As to your belief that religions  "... are just a way people have..." I would suggest, that for many that's possibly true.  But for millions of others (including yours truly) it's a relationship arrived at by weighing the evidence and finding it so persuasive as to make me foolish not to believe it.  Religions can't help people get through their lives if they are not reliable or produce no results in those lives, in my humble opinion.  So... thanks for your advice and admonition...

[Jude123]

Clanad I stand corrected. Even so the way I've lived my life has produced results, as you put it. Many events, if not all, have worked out the way I have wished and hoped for, sometimes after many years of hoping, but I can't attribute that to any specific religion, just perseverence and probably an attitude of 'maybe, one day'  or perhaps a 'what will be will be'. I told you I was a simple person didn't I!

[blinkyblinky]

Hi Clanad, your post was addressed to Lefox, but some of it seemed aimed at me...

Although you ignored most of my questions - and that's fine, I don't have any claim on your time or energy resources - I never suggested God was changeable. The point was, you asserted that the important thing was honouring God, not getting yourself into paradise. I wanted to know what you would do if honouring God meant you would go to hell. Of course it's a hypothetical question, but it's one where your hypothetical answer serves to illuminate the subject.

For example, you said (hypothetically) that you would, if you could, give me your seat in heaven in exchange for my seat in hell. To me this seems a greater sacrifice for little me than Jesus made for all humanity. I mean, if someone said, "Blinky, you can die peacefully in your sleep and then go to hell for all eternity, or you can go through unimaginable agony for three days, and then ascend to heaven for all eternity" I'd choose the latter without a second thought. It doesn't seem like such a great sacrifice.

I'm interested in this stuff, which is why I post here. If you can find the time to answer, I suspect your answer will be ingenious - sorry if that means I deserve to be called arrogant.

mimififi, point taken. Please rest assured it was the cases where the drugs are abused that I was talking about. I totally accept that depression can be become so serious that it becomes an illness and people should get any help they can for it.

[spk]

Gee whizz kids- chill out. Why cant you all just get along? Live and let live and let people have the beliefs they choose. A post on AB isnt going to change anything. Let it go

[Peter Pedant]

I thought people would get posting.....

El D - clicking fingers - priests and clerics can lecture for hours on this - three hour sermons were not uncommon in the eighteenth century, but then ther wasnt Coronation Street to look forward to.....bear in mind that Christ during his temptation was asked this very question by Satan.

 

SillyMoo, Where were you during your Religios Instructios lessons ? behing the gym smoking I think. Christ at this time was human - that was why he could die. Also all his miracles during this time were done through His Father. Only after the resurrection does he do miracles himself - showing the change in nature. And remember post resurrection He is only eva seen by believers.

I mean come on Boys and Girls, stop thinking for yourselves - this had been thought about for 2 000 years and there is virtually nothing that hasnt been said about it sillions of times.....

[blinkyblinky]

spk If a post on ab isn't going to change anything, why are you posting on ab?

[spk]

Fair point ! Difference is it doesnt wind me up. I just find AB entertaining

[blinkyblinky]

spk - it's a good job some people here really care about the things they are posting about, or it wouldn't be half as entertaining...

[astaff]

As much as I think this is a great thread and a great topic to be discussed, I really hope no one is expecting this issue to be answered here. The issue of Christ, His character, sin, and atonement have been debated for centuries. Believers claim we are right, unbelievers claim Believers are wrong. However, for either side to assume the other side is ignorant or uninformed may or may not be accurate, depending on the individual. If someone is really interested in researching the identity of Christ, reliability of the Bible, etc, here are some books to consider:

Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
Burning Desire, by S.J. Hill
The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel

Websites to visit may be
www.livingwaters.com/start.shtml
www.carm.org

If we want to know who God is (if there is one), let's at least give it an honest shot.

[mimififi]

And for anyone who is interested in evolutionary/the ark/dinosaru mystery  type questions, read anything by Ken Ham.  Excllent writer with compelling evidence.  Written succinctly without compromising on details.

Alternatively, ask God Direct.  Works for me.

[mibn2cweus]

Or if you need a little counterbalance there's always "Atheism: The Case Against God" by George H Smith.

[blinkyblinky]

I think we are all being quite civil on this thread, we're not exactly at each others' throats, and as for expecting to solve these issues here, I for one don't think it's going to happen, but it's still a very interesting discussion and it gives me a chance to hear the other side of the argument. Can't see much wrong with that...

[El D]

Just curious Clanad - your faith, or rather 'rational' (!) basis for belief lies in biblical texts to a large extent. However why do you feel confident making the assertion that the historical authenticity of the text (for argument's sake) gives weight to 'unhistorical' claims i.e. claims that are not historical, but supernatural. Understand (not put that well)? If I hold a well documented piece of original text - it often ratifies what we might already know about a period, the authorship is often suspected or known, the provenance is also likely known, and we ask question such as why, who, what, where and when to objectively determine its merits.

Now, for example, say we discover a Roman text which accurately portrays a period of their history according to all known accounts. Say, a family history detailing their involvement in a great battle etc. What is different about this piece is that an active and fully acknowledged role is given to the Roman gods, who are described helping the family at various times in their hardships. They are seen, heard, called upon, even relied upon. Obviously, what we have here is a historically accurate piece which incorporates the accepted mythology of the times. How are we to distinguish between what is real, and what is 'imaginary'? Is the accuracy of the historical events related to the claims of supernatural goings-on?

[Jude123]

I withdraw gracefully from this thread! Too deep for me!

[mibn2cweus]

Oh dear, someones going to miss my rant.  Oh well it was to long anyway.

[astaff]

I certainly didn't mean any disrespect with my initial post, as to imply that this was neither a civil discussion nor interesting. I, too enjoy reading threads such as this and very occasionally involve myself in them. I hope, I really do, that I'm wrong in my assertion that this is where some people come to find the answers they are looking for on such an important issue. This is life and death, any way you slice it. I would say dig, search, read, and pray (whether you believe in God or not), but do it with sincerity and honesty, whether trying to find out more about God, trying to solidify your own position, justify your own mindset, or crumble someone else's foundation (with all due respect). The thing is that the quest for spiritual truth is a long and arduous journey, whatever side you are on. I know what I believe and where I stand, although there are a lot of answers I don't have. I for one, am going to get that Smith book on atheism. Case in point to match: Both Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel took the search to disprove Christianity as a challenge and researched it seriously. It is that information which converted them (one a law student, the other a journalist), that they have published in their books.