My God, My God, why have you forsaken me ?

[mfewell]

Words from the cross by Christ. Can I add a tilt to them. They are supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT, but what if, when Christ uttered them from the cross, that they were more than that and utterly true, i.e. God the Father had momentarily forsaken his son ? Imagine for a moment that Christ in hanging there did indeed take all the badness of all time on his shoulders ? Can you imagine a pain any worse and a love any higher ? Just a thought, but by heck it sticks with me.

[WaldoMcFroog]

I feel much the same about Lily Potter's sacrifice to save Harry from Voldemort, to be honest. It's amazing how moving fiction can be, isn't it?

[Eastender]

Good question mfewell.  Pity the above post, and people like the one above cannot distingquish Fact from Fiction !!!!! such a shame.

[El D]

why he wouldnt have just clicked his fingers is beyond me . . .

[silly moo]

As Christ was both wholly human and wholly divine, I think He did honestly feel that God had forsaken him - if only momentarily. I can't imagine the mental pain he must have been feeling - and all for me.

[Clanad]

Well, my brother.... you've begun to grasp the true significance of the cross.  Libraries are filled with discussion and dissection of your very question.  One can only catch a glimpse of the true sacifrice of the Lamb.  There's a current song says "I'll never know what it cost to see my sins on the cross". When you study Isaiah, the Psalms and all the other "types and shadows" prophesying the coming of Messiah you see exactly God's plan for the redemption of mankind.  Only a perfect sacrifice could satisfy the perfect justness of El Shaddai. Every sin that had ever been committed or ever would be was placed on Yeshua... yours, mine and even El D's.  To the extent that he became unrecognizable as a man, according to Isaiah.  And, it wasn't just a momentary ripping and tearing through all eternity of the total completeness of God the Father and God the Son.  It lasted until the third day, after Yeshua led captives free from sheol, according to the witness of Ephesians 4: 7-9. But, the total plan was complete... the only thing that could be missing was man's acceptance of it... a totally free gift of life, but one that each individual makes or rejects... in my humble opinion...

[bracknell]

Look at it from another side:  God had told Jesus that he was born to save the world from itself, but he would pay the ultimate sacrifice. I think that Jesus accepted his lot in life, but he was not happy about the way he died I mean having to carry the cross and then be nailed to it. Bet he did not think it would end like that utter humiliation being treated as a common thief. This is what I think Jesus is trying to say when uttered those words.  Perhaps being run over by a Chariot was not good enough, so he had to suffer in front of the whole world for God's promise to come true.  What would happen to Jesus today - "Happy Slapping?" and that's another issue!!

[mibn2cweus]

I would rather burn for an eternity in hell than have another person suffer for my mistakes.  But even that would not stop me from taking responsibility for my actions and doing all that is humanly possible to undo any damage that I have caused.  If I were God on the cross this is what I would be thinking, �I put that tree in the garden and the snake as well.  I could have prevented all this grief and now I am paying the price I owe.�  Perhaps this explains why they invented the concept of the Holy Trinity.  So that Jesus would not be to blame.  What a rotten dichotomy!  What a stinking little trick!

[El D]

Noone knows why he didnt just click his fingers then?

[El D]

What is with you lot and suffering? Does it fill some kind of perverse inner desire to punish yourself? Is it the only way you can relate to life? Why is a perfect sacrifice needed? Why is any sacrifice needed? Why the big song and dance from mr big?

p.s. I don't sin. Only people who think they have to apologise for being human sin.

[mibn2cweus]

Didn't work right the first time.

[mfewell]

El D, is this question troubling you ? You have posted 3 answers already. It was only a thought. Do you actually have anything positive to add beyond sneering ?

[Cetti]

El D, Jesus could have snapped his fingers at any time whilst hanging on that cross and tens of thousands of angels would have been at his side in an instant to rescue him - but he chose to die for you, me and everyone else.

Fear? He sweated drops of blood before the crucifixion because he was wholly himan as well as wholly God.

During WW1 there were stories of men so terrified that they were beyond fear and their sweat turned into blood, but this bodily changed killed them - Jesus went on to finish the job He came for. That is real love.

[El D]

So let me clarify - he could have saved us with a click of his fingers but he died anyway? Why do we need to feel grateful to such a figure? If I save your baby from a fire and then commit myself to immolation would you feel more grateful or merely that I was confused . . .

mfewell - indeed its an area of interest to me. If you prefer a back slapping club here is one for you

http://www.rr-bb.com/index.php?s=4f03bfe7b8e4e635bb9ab8a 566350211

if you feel like challenging a few of your beliefs and engaging your brain in rational discourse I suggest here

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/

of course if my answers bother you maybe you are finally asking the right questions.

[mfewell]

El D, I am not bothered, but you were bothered enough to answer, wait 20 minutes then answer again. I only asked. You see, if Christ all along knew he would be killed then resurrected then it does dilute a bit his death on the cross. All he would have to do as god-made-man is to grin and bear it for a couple of days.  If however his own father did ACTUALLY abandon him, then it says so much more, principally about what God was saying to Man from the cross. I don't know the answer, but I think about it a lot.

[El D]

Well no - as certain 'antagonists' (!?) on here have pointed out I normally manage to comment on such matters. As an intellectual questioning being religion enters my sphere of interest simply through the number of people who practice it. If, as it should be, it was the league of small pockets of cultists my interest would not be as great. As it happens I typed both answers together but my internet connection went funny and merely copy pasted the second one.

'If however his own father did ACTUALLY abandon him, then it says so much more, principally about what God was saying to Man from the cross' - please elaborate. What was our perfect being achieving through this action?

[mfewell]

Well El D, it goes like this. I take it as read that Jesus was and is the son of god. That might be fiction, it might be fact - I go with the latter. My question was not a campaign for christianity, because I have my own problems there. But I try to imagine what if the  words "My God why have you forsaken me" were more than just an evocation of a psalm. If indeed Jesus went to the cross thinking, this is a doddle, because I'll be ok in a few days' time, but then it wasn't, and at that point he had to take all the badness (I don't say sin, don't understand the word) of all time for ever on his shoulders, then what does that say ?

[El D]

Why wouldn't he have been told? Why would god need to abandon him? Doesn't this start questions bouncing around your head? You accept the bible as fact - ok, fine. How do you explain the many evil acts perpetrated by god, including, it seems, abandoning his son when he needs him most for no good reason. Not a standard that would evoke a great deal of trust on my part.

[blinkyblinky]

I've been informed on this site that I'll go to hell if I don't accept what christians tell me to accept. I was just wondering - people who lived before Jesus obviously never had the chance to become christians - the same goes for many people today in non-christian cultures. Presumably they won't go to hell automatically because they never had a chance to hear about Jesus. Is that right? Whereas I have heard all about him, and I still refuse to join the club, so I will definitely go to hell. Is that right?

My last question is, why are some non-christians, born before Jesus or in remote locations, lucky in that they're not excluded from heaven wheras others like me are automatically excluded. It seems a bit of a lottery... If you're born at the right time or place, you can be a good non-christian and go to heaven. If you're born in the wrong time or place, you can be a good non-christian but still go to hell. (I only ask out of selfish interest - if there is a heaven and hell, I would prefer to go to heaven.)

[mfewell]

El D - thanks for those links.

[Chessman]

Just a couple of points, When Jesus said, 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?', sounds like he lost faith, even momentarily, and surely, thats a sin, also, who was Jesus talking to, he was God come to eath in human form.