registering as self employed

[mccfluff]

morning

if i'm registering as self employed, is this the right form?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/cwf1.pdf

i keep getting a link to register online and i don't want to do that!

(any other hints/tips etc, will be working for one company full time but as self employed)

[ummmm]

I don't think you can work for just one company as self employed anymore.

[RATTER15]

I agree with ummmm, they have really tightened up on it.

[buildersmate]

You do have the correct form here, but as Ummmmmmmmm says, you and the organisation with whom you claim to have a contract with are likely to find it tough going with HMRC over this.
There are key attributes HMRC looks for when deciding whether you are self-employed or not - whether you have control over when you work, possibly whether you work on the contractor's site or from your own premises, whether you supply all your own equipment or not.
However the onus is on the organisation providing you the contract and any back-claim for NI on your employment will come to the organisation and not to you.
Check that you have been provided with a contract with this work and see what the wording is regarding any clauses about 'the contractor agrees to determine that the contract is not employment .......' or words to that effect - which would push the legal onus back onto you, regarding employment status.

[mccfluff]

i did the ESI and came out as self employed??

[buildersmate]

OK then, the ESI asks the questions I was referring to above.
That's a good thing.
But Google for 'IR35' and bone up on it.

[mccfluff]

im begining to think this was a bloody stupid idea

and you know the really really annoying thing my dads an accountant but i can't go to him

(oh yeah BM if you see my stepdad don't mention it or i'm in trouble :-)

[venator]

I'd go for it - I think that if the HMRC managed to contest your self employed status, the employer would be liable for the PAYE and NI they didn't deduct.

Does anyone have chapter and verse?

[buildersmate]

Yes, Venator - that is exactly what I said above.

[mccfluff]

aplogies buildermate i got you confused with the builder (who knows my stepdad) hence the odd post :-)

its not actually for me but for fatty who has been told by his firm to supply a SEC, so i'm trying to get the forms to get him registered. personally i think its a very very fine line, but i'll find a way

just wish i could call me dad :-(

[buildersmate]

I don't know what a Self-employed Certificate unless you mean this.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/cf10.pdf
A certificate of small earnings exemption.
I suspect the organisation is ensuring it gets indemnification from a future claim by HMRC by asking for this.
The only way your friend is going to be able to deal with this as a self-employed person is to have a contract for £ for delivery of a specific output - not to be paid £X per hour or per day. HMRC won't have it.

[mccfluff]

thank you, have printed that out, we'll have to go over it tonight and figure it out!

[MarkRae]

There are several things to check.

1) Are you legitimately "in business"? I.e. do you run a business which provides a service to anyone who can afford it? If you're working exclusively for one company, then you clearly don't and are stuffed.

2) Does the contract with this company state that it's employing the services of your company or you exclusively by name? If the latter, you're stuffed.

3) Does the contract with this company contain a substitution clause? I.e. that you are able to supply anyone of equivalent skill without prior consultation. From what you've said, I doubt it does, in which case you're stuffed.

4) Are able to choose the hours you work?

5) Are you able to choose where you work?

6) Will you be reporting to a single manager?

7) Is there honestly any difference between your employment with this company and that of a permanent employee?

It sounds to me very much like you are are trying to get round paying PAYE and NIC. In which case, what you are doing is completely illegal. As has been previously mentioned, IR35 was set up precisely to catch this sort of tax evasion.

[Tom Braider]

It's not Mcfluff who's trying to avoid tax and Nic, or his friend, but the friend's employer. If only workers like fatty were in a position to refuse work unless they were properly employed... It's nothing to do with IR 35, by the way.

[buildersmate]

OK, fair point - IR35 is to do with elimination of the use of intermediaries (as an agent) to avoid employing people.

[MarkRae]

^^ By which statement you appear to imply that working for a company directly as opposed to through a third-party agent would make you exempt from the IR35 laws. This isn't the case at all! IR35 exists to fight against what is known as disguised employment. E.g. if a self-employed person does the same work as a company employee then they should be taxed as if they actually are a company employee.

[Im a BusyBee]

sounds very iffy you would not get away with it with HMRC. Why do it for the benefit of your employer - you do realise you lose entitlement to lots of benefits by being self employed?

[Im a BusyBee]

You do also realise you will be liable for NI its only the employers part that the HMRC lose out on?

You will need to register for NI - payments to be taken by direct debit.

Also you will be required to complete a self assessment form each year which could involve needing an accountant (more expense to you) if you are not up to completing it yourself.

[mccfluff]

thanks both. yes i am very aware that he is essentially an employee and i've told him this isn;t going to be easy but there is a reason - its not to avoid tax and he doesn;t really want to do it as he loses his benefits like holiday pay etc

[sunny-dave]

... plus (although he will pay NI) he won't be eligible for contributions based JSA if he becomes unemployed ...

[mccfluff]

yes well the nob will just reply on me in that case