Jesus on the Cross

[Lonnie]

On the Cross, Jesus said, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. If God is the father, and Jesus and God are one, who was he talking to?.

[CheekyChops]

I wasn't aware that Jesus and God are one. Jesus is the son of God and therefore they are two different people.

[noxlumos]

But what about the Blessed Trinity cheeky, isn't that what lonnie's talking about? Father, Son and Holy Ghost etcf... nearly broke into american Pie then:)

[Lonnie]

As Noxlumas has said, I am talking about the Trinity, and I hope i'm not being anti-Christian by posting this question, its something thats bothered me for years.

[kempie]

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/trinity.html

[Lonnie]

Thanks for the link kempie, although it poses other questions, I won't ask them now.

[patc7641]

He didnt say that, that is mans arrogant interpretation of what they would have liked him to say, if he existed at all, in order to perpetuate the myth and brainwash people to follow them.

[Clanad]

This probably one of the most difficult concepts to grasp, Lonnie... however, as we've discussed, you being a member, by birth at leaet , of the People of the Book, the concept of Trinity is referenced several places in Torah as well as the New Covenant. The very first being '******** bara Elohim' in the opening lines of the Book of **********. As you know, Elohim, is singular in meaning but plural in use as indicated by the ending "im". Therefore, even the opening phrase of Genesis infers a singular God with more than one distinct personage but all equally God. The incarnate God (that is, God made flesh) is Yeshua Ha Masshiach.
During His ministry on Earth, He was asked by his Disciples to show them the Father and He replied 'how can you say, 'Let us see the Father,' when to see me is to see the Father? Don't you believe that he and I are one? When I speak, you're not only hearing me, you're also hearing the Father carrying out his work through me. If you find it impossible to believe in my oneness with him, then believe on the basis of what you've seen me do. The fact is that if you believe in me you'll be able to do not only what you've seen me do but more, because I'll with the Father (John 14: Paraphrase)

[Clanad]

Hmmm? The Hebrew Bereshisth won't pass the bots...

[Lonnie]

Thanks Clanad, I was rather hoping you'd answer this, and even though I can't, and dont believe in Jesus as the son of God, in reference to my question, you've put it in terms I can understand.

[Lonnie]

I don't know what happened there, but basically. Clanad, i'm thanking you for your answer.

[Zorr0]

I was brought up a catholic.

Does anyone still believe in "God"...coz I dont.

What with all the Darwen stuff etc.

[*Zeus*]

I am king of the Gods.

[spacechimp]

That you are *Zeus*

[CheekyChops]

I don't even believe in God, its just my understanding and you never mention the Trinity in your question (what is that anyway?) otherwise I wouldn't have answered.

[Lonnie]

CheekyChops, First, I am not Christian, although I have a good understanding of the Christian faith, and parts of it still puzzle me, which is why I asked that question,

Trinity is three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, Have a look at Kempie's link, and have a read of Clanads post.

[jno]

interesting posts but do they answer the question? Why should Jesus call upon God to forgive them if, as God, he could do so himself?

[Clanad]

Fair question, jno. In order for that part of God that we know as Jesus to become human, He had to first lay aside his Godhood, if you will. He had to become as we are in order to accomplish a number of things. The first to be counted as human, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." (Collosians 2:9), "...was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Phillipians 2:5-8). There are many more quotes concerning His humanity and his ability to experience what man goes through, but not to sin, since this is what made Him the perfect sacrifice prophesied numerous places in the Old Covenant. He tired, was hungry, thirsted, probably smelled bad and became angry and displayed frustration with those around Him.
Secondly, He laid down His life willingly and at His will, and took it up again in order to prove Who He was.

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

There's a song whose chorus is "I'll never know just what it cost to see my sins upon that cross"... and I think this encapsulates the unimaginable anguish of Yeshua causing Him to cry out, "My God (Yahweh) why have you forsaken me?" It was at this point the ******** truth of the Trinity is powerfully displayed, in my opinion. Yeshua had, for all infinite eternity prior to this historical event, been one third of total God... complete and inseperable (and a unfathomable mystery to man). But in order to redeem man from his self-imposed exile from the presence of the Creator, Yeshua seperated Himself from the Godhead to complete the plan.... "The Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world"...(Revelation 13:8), which fulfills yet another prophecy "...He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)... Long winded way of saying, jno, at the moment He asked God the Father to forgive them, Yeshua was man, having laid aside his glory for the moment. (Having said that, He was always fully God as well, but willingly chose not to act as such but teach all by His example, the total reliance on God the Father... "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.� (Matthew 11:28-30)
Thanks for the question!

[jno]

a good answer Clanad, and I'm sure the correct one; yet I believe it raises difficult questions. How can a god set aside his godhead? The late Pope John Paul refused to consider retiring or abdicating in any way, feeling that his was a job that had to be performed until his death. Queen Elizabeth II does the same. The notion of Jesus being less rigorous, stepping aside from himself when it suited, smacks too much (for me) of those Greek gods who turned themselves into humans or animals in order to seduce peasant girls; not the behaviour of a true deity.

Indeed, it seems to raise the question of whether Christ's 'sacrifice' on the cross was anything of the sort. We are moved by Sidney Carton giving up his life for another in A Tale of Two Cities; and yet to do so knowing that you will be reincarnated, and at your Father's right hand again in a matter of days, seems no true sacrifice at all. He suffered pain - as did those crucified alongside Him - but not loss.

Incidentally, I found this story most interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1748835,00.html

- because surely it must be true that Judas, more than any other, was vital to the carrying out of God's plan, and thus undeserving of the centuries of condemnation he has faced?

[Clanad]

Interesting point, jno... but I'm afraid you missed mine. Simply put, the Godhead (all three in one, yet only one) existing, as I pointed out, for infinite eternity before the creation of the universe (or time), knew that man, their most cherished part of creation, would seperate himself from God. Yet, the love of God for man is so incomprehensibly great that a plan for correcting that problem was already in place. But it required a perfect sacrifice, far beyond the blood of bulls and sheep. That perfect sacrifice to satisfy the justice of God could only be God Himself. It required the rendering asunder of the absolute Oneness of the Three... totally unimagineable so my words fall short of the magnitude of the event. Yeshua willingly, because of His love, said He would be that sacrifice. It meant far more than His physical body lying in a tomb for three days... it meant His descent into Hades carrying all, absolutely all of the sins and evilness of man... past, present and future. This caused Father God (for lack of a better term) to turn away from Yeshua, since He could not 'look upon sin'... ("You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness..." Habakkuk 1:13) Jesus is bearing man�s judgment, not only the judgment of death but also the judgment of separation from God.

Contd.