Travel4 mins ago
Hole In Chimney
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I am seeking some advice and am going to ask what might be very silly questions, and it's a fairly long story so please bear with me.
A couple of weeks ago our co monitor went off. It lived in the cupboard where the gas boiler (combi condensing) lives which is in one of the bedrooms, not the one we sleep in. I immediately switched off the boiler, opened all the windows, and went outside until it stopped, which it did quite quickly. We assumed something must be amiss with the boiler, so called the gas engineer - the boiler was due for service anyway. He came straight round, and couldn't find a thing wrong with it. He was there for ages running the analytics, running the heating, running the hot water, but nothing. He recommended a new alarm, as the one we had was more than 10 years old. The new one alerts at lower levels of co, and to ventilate. Since then though, I have been turning the boiler off and only using it for 15 minutes morning and night to run a shower/bath. Once the ventilate alarm went off, and stopped quickly when I did that.
The cupboard where the boiler lives was very dusty and full of junk, so we cleared it all out, and cleaned/dusted it thoroughly. When it was empty we found a hole, half brick size in the bottom of the cupboard. On looking into it, it's the chimney, because we can see the flue liner which we had attached to a gas fire many years ago. We had the liner because our chimney was known before we had the fire fitted, to not be gas safe. We have an electric fire there now.
So, what's going on. My next door neighbour, the other of a pair of semis (90 years old), has a gas fire. Is the carbon monixde coming from there? Now the silly question, maybe. Looking into this hole, inside the chimney is quite a bit of soot and black residue, although I am pretty sure we had it swept before having the liner in. Is it all all possible that this soot or whatever, if it gets hot from the fire next door (the chimneys are back to back), it could give off carbon monoxide). We can easily have the hole bricked up but whichever way you look at it we have carbon monxoide in a chimney that isn't suitable. If the soot isn't causing the carbon monoxide to be there, then there is a leak from next door, which opens up all kinds of scenarios none of them to their liking.
Suggestions, advice whatever much appreciated. For the next 3 weeks none of this is going to be an issue as they will be away next door and won't be having the fire on!!
We kept the window in that room open, along with other upstairs windows
A couple of weeks ago our co monitor went off. It lived in the cupboard where the gas boiler (combi condensing) lives which is in one of the bedrooms, not the one we sleep in. I immediately switched off the boiler, opened all the windows, and went outside until it stopped, which it did quite quickly. We assumed something must be amiss with the boiler, so called the gas engineer - the boiler was due for service anyway. He came straight round, and couldn't find a thing wrong with it. He was there for ages running the analytics, running the heating, running the hot water, but nothing. He recommended a new alarm, as the one we had was more than 10 years old. The new one alerts at lower levels of co, and to ventilate. Since then though, I have been turning the boiler off and only using it for 15 minutes morning and night to run a shower/bath. Once the ventilate alarm went off, and stopped quickly when I did that.
The cupboard where the boiler lives was very dusty and full of junk, so we cleared it all out, and cleaned/dusted it thoroughly. When it was empty we found a hole, half brick size in the bottom of the cupboard. On looking into it, it's the chimney, because we can see the flue liner which we had attached to a gas fire many years ago. We had the liner because our chimney was known before we had the fire fitted, to not be gas safe. We have an electric fire there now.
So, what's going on. My next door neighbour, the other of a pair of semis (90 years old), has a gas fire. Is the carbon monixde coming from there? Now the silly question, maybe. Looking into this hole, inside the chimney is quite a bit of soot and black residue, although I am pretty sure we had it swept before having the liner in. Is it all all possible that this soot or whatever, if it gets hot from the fire next door (the chimneys are back to back), it could give off carbon monoxide). We can easily have the hole bricked up but whichever way you look at it we have carbon monxoide in a chimney that isn't suitable. If the soot isn't causing the carbon monoxide to be there, then there is a leak from next door, which opens up all kinds of scenarios none of them to their liking.
Suggestions, advice whatever much appreciated. For the next 3 weeks none of this is going to be an issue as they will be away next door and won't be having the fire on!!
We kept the window in that room open, along with other upstairs windows
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Call your gas expert out when you are sure your neighbour as the gas fire on, perhaps this is something you could arrange.
The gas expert will detect any leakage and advise accordingly.
In the meantime try leaving your boiler on for longer periods whist they are away to be sure your monitor isn't set off by that.
The gas expert will detect any leakage and advise accordingly.
In the meantime try leaving your boiler on for longer periods whist they are away to be sure your monitor isn't set off by that.
Thank you that's what our plan is for now. Tomorrow the boiler will go back on, we'll run it for water and heating a few times and see what happens over the next few days.
Next door had their boiler and fire serviced on the same day we did, by the same gas engineer. He's in touch regularly because he was concerned about it himself. Just a little while ago, I asked her to put her fire on and she did. I put the monitor by the hole, and just this minute it's started going off, not half an hour from her putting the fire on. So that's where it's coming from, but the uncertainty is it the heat from her chimney making my residues give off carbon monoxide or a leak in the chimney.
If he thinks it's a leak in the chimney, and I think that is what he does think, how on earth are we going to find out for certain. To simply bite the bullet and have a liner put in (we don't believe she has one), is going to be fearfully expensive, so she really needs to know that it's absolutely 100% certain her gas fumes are leaking into our chimney.
Next door had their boiler and fire serviced on the same day we did, by the same gas engineer. He's in touch regularly because he was concerned about it himself. Just a little while ago, I asked her to put her fire on and she did. I put the monitor by the hole, and just this minute it's started going off, not half an hour from her putting the fire on. So that's where it's coming from, but the uncertainty is it the heat from her chimney making my residues give off carbon monoxide or a leak in the chimney.
If he thinks it's a leak in the chimney, and I think that is what he does think, how on earth are we going to find out for certain. To simply bite the bullet and have a liner put in (we don't believe she has one), is going to be fearfully expensive, so she really needs to know that it's absolutely 100% certain her gas fumes are leaking into our chimney.
About 85 years old. Next doors flue at downstairs level was moved and rebuilt about 30 years ago but the upper part is the original one. Ours is blocked up from the ground up to about 4 feet and there’s just a hole in the chimney breast for the inset fire. I’ve no idea who put the hole there. It wasn’t us.
Thanks TheWinner. I missed that :o(
Clay liners came in in the late 30s or so because of leak problems in flues.
What you have is a shared construction. Two separate flues with a 100mm brick partition wall between them.
Over time, the plaster on the flue walls (parging) falls out. So do the mortar joints in the partition. The flues effectively become linked.
The pukka solution is to fit stainless steel flexible liners.
Then........ leakage between them is no longer so important.
I wonder if you can persuade next door ??
Clay liners came in in the late 30s or so because of leak problems in flues.
What you have is a shared construction. Two separate flues with a 100mm brick partition wall between them.
Over time, the plaster on the flue walls (parging) falls out. So do the mortar joints in the partition. The flues effectively become linked.
The pukka solution is to fit stainless steel flexible liners.
Then........ leakage between them is no longer so important.
I wonder if you can persuade next door ??
This is kind of where the thought processes were going. Tbh given the cost of having a flue liner put in place, it’d be significantly cheaper to get rid of the gas and have electric. She just paid £700 for this new gas fire less than a year ago.
It’s a dilemma all round. The irony is we only found this situation by chance. The hole was filled with bubble wrap and some boxes of junk were pushed against it. I dislodged these by accident trying to get something else in the cupboard. It seems that’s all that’s been keeping the hole from leaking carbon monoxide ages ago. Of course what we have no way of knowing exactly when the flue began leaking to our side. Oh dear.
It’s a dilemma all round. The irony is we only found this situation by chance. The hole was filled with bubble wrap and some boxes of junk were pushed against it. I dislodged these by accident trying to get something else in the cupboard. It seems that’s all that’s been keeping the hole from leaking carbon monoxide ages ago. Of course what we have no way of knowing exactly when the flue began leaking to our side. Oh dear.
It would be helpful if yourcartridges gasfitter did a smoke test on both flues.
Gas pellets/cartridges are used for this. They put a lighted pellet into the bottom of the flue and just check through the house for any evidence of leaks.
They give off a lot of smoke (often coloured), so it's a pretty good test.
In my experience, this test is always done when a new appliance is fitted.
Gas pellets/cartridges are used for this. They put a lighted pellet into the bottom of the flue and just check through the house for any evidence of leaks.
They give off a lot of smoke (often coloured), so it's a pretty good test.
In my experience, this test is always done when a new appliance is fitted.
He did a smoke test when he serviced the fire last week. Saw it come out of the chimney but at that time the hole in ours wasn’t exposed.
I guess he could come back and do another and see if any is coming through this hole. No smoke was seen anywhere else but there wasn’t anywhere else for it to go. I don’t believe he reported any coming out of our chimney.
I guess he could come back and do another and see if any is coming through this hole. No smoke was seen anywhere else but there wasn’t anywhere else for it to go. I don’t believe he reported any coming out of our chimney.
Ah............ I can't tell from here I'm afraid ;o)
It's quite possible. A pair of binoculars usually tells you.
If it is... a vent at the bottom and another at the chimney outlet is advisable to avoid condensation.
If next door wants to go on using the gas fire without a liner, Then ventilation would help clear the CO leaking into your flue.
Not the ideal situation I have to say. I'd be much happier if next door's CO didn't get in in the first place.
And yes ........ do bung up the hole in your boiler cupboard.
It's quite possible. A pair of binoculars usually tells you.
If it is... a vent at the bottom and another at the chimney outlet is advisable to avoid condensation.
If next door wants to go on using the gas fire without a liner, Then ventilation would help clear the CO leaking into your flue.
Not the ideal situation I have to say. I'd be much happier if next door's CO didn't get in in the first place.
And yes ........ do bung up the hole in your boiler cupboard.
Yes we are going to take this one step at a time. We have got someone to come and brick up the hole in the chimney at the weekend.
Meantime we are running the boiler to ensure no issues are arising from that while we know no fire will be on next door. So far so good. We were 99.9% sure it isn’t but just need to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.
Then when that’s done I’ll go round and put their fire on (I have permission and a key) to ensure it’s sound from that point of view.
After that what to do about gas fire usage isn’t my decision. This is the first time any carbon monoxide has been detected.
Meantime we are running the boiler to ensure no issues are arising from that while we know no fire will be on next door. So far so good. We were 99.9% sure it isn’t but just need to dot the i’s and cross the t’s.
Then when that’s done I’ll go round and put their fire on (I have permission and a key) to ensure it’s sound from that point of view.
After that what to do about gas fire usage isn’t my decision. This is the first time any carbon monoxide has been detected.
As a follow up to this, i do think we have established beyond a reasonable doubt there is nothing wrong with the boiler. It's been on and being used for the past 5 days and no alarms at all.
Having spoken to the gas fitter, he tells me that once the owner of the fire returns from holiday in 2.5 weeks time, he's going to have to put a warning notice on it. Then he will have to have the conversation with her as to where to go moving forward. We will of course have repaired the hole in our flue, but that doesn't alter the fact that carbon monoxide had been getting through. Understandably the gas fitter feels he cannot allow a fire that he fitted and serviced to be used now he's been alerted to this problem.
So for now, all is well, Come the middle of November she is going to have to come to a decision about whether to have the chimney lined, or scrap the gas fire (less than a year old), and get an electric one. I am pleased he has taken over having this conversation as I don't want to.
Having spoken to the gas fitter, he tells me that once the owner of the fire returns from holiday in 2.5 weeks time, he's going to have to put a warning notice on it. Then he will have to have the conversation with her as to where to go moving forward. We will of course have repaired the hole in our flue, but that doesn't alter the fact that carbon monoxide had been getting through. Understandably the gas fitter feels he cannot allow a fire that he fitted and serviced to be used now he's been alerted to this problem.
So for now, all is well, Come the middle of November she is going to have to come to a decision about whether to have the chimney lined, or scrap the gas fire (less than a year old), and get an electric one. I am pleased he has taken over having this conversation as I don't want to.
I was asked to try and find out how much it would be to have a flue liner put in. I know the answer will not be very palatable. Liners around £300 give or take depending on the size. Someone to put it down the chimney. Scaffolding.
A friend of mine just had a new gas boiler installed by British Gas, who included the cost of the liner and its installation but the scaffolding was down to her. £400. This option is going to be far and away the most expensive. She had the gas fire newly installed less than a year ago at a cost of £700. I have looked around and there appears to be no market for second hand gas fires, even pretty new ones.
Fantastic news to come home from holiday to, but the fact is, these are old houses, and things do go wrong, and money needs spending on them. Witness the number of houses on the estate with scaffolding up that are having a new roof. Up to this last year, a fire wasn't so much of an issue, you could just have the heating on. Not so any more!! We shall all have to invest in thermal clothing.
A friend of mine just had a new gas boiler installed by British Gas, who included the cost of the liner and its installation but the scaffolding was down to her. £400. This option is going to be far and away the most expensive. She had the gas fire newly installed less than a year ago at a cost of £700. I have looked around and there appears to be no market for second hand gas fires, even pretty new ones.
Fantastic news to come home from holiday to, but the fact is, these are old houses, and things do go wrong, and money needs spending on them. Witness the number of houses on the estate with scaffolding up that are having a new roof. Up to this last year, a fire wasn't so much of an issue, you could just have the heating on. Not so any more!! We shall all have to invest in thermal clothing.
///She had the gas fire newly installed less than a year ago at a cost of £700///
Can she not make a claim against the installer who has failed to do the job properly and should remedy it without charge (except perhaps for materials).
As a light-hearted aside to give you a laugh, your comment about "put it down the chimney" reminds me of when, years ago, as an eager DIYer I installed a gas fire replacing an open coal fire. I got an approved gas fitter to check it and connect the gas mains, but before that I had naively assumed i could push the flexible liner up from the bottom. After some hilarious efforts I had to admit defeat and get a local builder in to do it -he managed without scaffolding, just a ladder but it looked very dangerous, thankfully he was very good at his job.
Can she not make a claim against the installer who has failed to do the job properly and should remedy it without charge (except perhaps for materials).
As a light-hearted aside to give you a laugh, your comment about "put it down the chimney" reminds me of when, years ago, as an eager DIYer I installed a gas fire replacing an open coal fire. I got an approved gas fitter to check it and connect the gas mains, but before that I had naively assumed i could push the flexible liner up from the bottom. After some hilarious efforts I had to admit defeat and get a local builder in to do it -he managed without scaffolding, just a ladder but it looked very dangerous, thankfully he was very good at his job.
The gas fitter did everything he should have done, according to regulations, when he fitted the fire. Inspected the flue to ensure it appeared to be in good condition, put a smoke bomb up to ensure it wasn't blocked. He's a gas safe fitter, gas board trained and very experienced, so didn't neglect anything he should have. The fire he took out was one that he had fitted many years before, and serviced every year. It was only replaced because of a broken part and due to its age replacements were no longer available. Had parts been available, she would still have the old one in place.
There is no legislation to say that it is mandatory to have a flue liner if having a gas fire fitted, although maybe there should be, and in an old house it's probably a good idea. As long as the instructions with the fire say a liner is not needed, and the flue has been inspected its ok. At the time there was no reason to suspect any issues with the flue. We have no idea how long there has been apparent damage to the chimney, all we know is the carbon monoxide alarm started alarming about 3 weeks ago, and subsequently we discovered the hole in our flue.
We also had a gas fire many years ago, and had to have a liner as our flue at that time was deemed not to be gas safe, and no wonder it wasn't. I remember them going on the roof, no scaffolding, to put it in place. It was quite a performance as I remember. 20 years later, when we wanted to replace the fire, we were asked how old the liner was and told it would probably not be up to the regulations and needed replacing. Hence now we have an electric fire.
The thing is, we know for a fact that our chimney is not gas safe, although it might well have been the hole we found that was the reason.
What he wanted to do as soon as this problem became apparent, was to remove the fire and have another look to see if anything had changed and was visible. As she was due to go on holiday 2 days later, she didn't want that to be done at the time. We all agreed that she wouldn't use the fire again, apart from the time we tested to see if the carbon monoxide was indeed coming out of the hole in our flue. Then she's away for 3 weeks, so the fire is out of use just now. When she comes back the situation will have to be addressed, but I don't believe that the gas fitter has been neglectful in any way.
There is no legislation to say that it is mandatory to have a flue liner if having a gas fire fitted, although maybe there should be, and in an old house it's probably a good idea. As long as the instructions with the fire say a liner is not needed, and the flue has been inspected its ok. At the time there was no reason to suspect any issues with the flue. We have no idea how long there has been apparent damage to the chimney, all we know is the carbon monoxide alarm started alarming about 3 weeks ago, and subsequently we discovered the hole in our flue.
We also had a gas fire many years ago, and had to have a liner as our flue at that time was deemed not to be gas safe, and no wonder it wasn't. I remember them going on the roof, no scaffolding, to put it in place. It was quite a performance as I remember. 20 years later, when we wanted to replace the fire, we were asked how old the liner was and told it would probably not be up to the regulations and needed replacing. Hence now we have an electric fire.
The thing is, we know for a fact that our chimney is not gas safe, although it might well have been the hole we found that was the reason.
What he wanted to do as soon as this problem became apparent, was to remove the fire and have another look to see if anything had changed and was visible. As she was due to go on holiday 2 days later, she didn't want that to be done at the time. We all agreed that she wouldn't use the fire again, apart from the time we tested to see if the carbon monoxide was indeed coming out of the hole in our flue. Then she's away for 3 weeks, so the fire is out of use just now. When she comes back the situation will have to be addressed, but I don't believe that the gas fitter has been neglectful in any way.
This isn't an update yet on this situation, but I am very puzzled about this hole into our chimney, and wonder why it's there. Not that it makes any difference to our situation, but I am very curious.
The hole is about the size of a half a brick, but it's not that half a brick has been removed, or fallen out, it looks as though it has been cut out deliberately for some reason, as the hole is rounded in shape and has smoothish edges.
It actually looks in size and shape to the central heating boiler flue that goes through the wall to the outside, although maybe slightly larger diameter. It looks for all the world as though something had been vented through it into the flue. But what could that have been?
The house is a 1930's semi detached, and the cupboard where the hole is has, to my knowledge always been an airing cupboard, but given that the house is 85 years old, and we have only lived here for 30 years or so I can't be absolutely sure, other than it appears to have been built into the house rather than added later. The person who lived here before us had only been in it about 5 years, and before that was the original owner from when the house was built.
If anyone can cast any light on this, just to satisfy my curiosity, I'd be really happy.
The hole is about the size of a half a brick, but it's not that half a brick has been removed, or fallen out, it looks as though it has been cut out deliberately for some reason, as the hole is rounded in shape and has smoothish edges.
It actually looks in size and shape to the central heating boiler flue that goes through the wall to the outside, although maybe slightly larger diameter. It looks for all the world as though something had been vented through it into the flue. But what could that have been?
The house is a 1930's semi detached, and the cupboard where the hole is has, to my knowledge always been an airing cupboard, but given that the house is 85 years old, and we have only lived here for 30 years or so I can't be absolutely sure, other than it appears to have been built into the house rather than added later. The person who lived here before us had only been in it about 5 years, and before that was the original owner from when the house was built.
If anyone can cast any light on this, just to satisfy my curiosity, I'd be really happy.
I thought I would put on a final update to this thread. Our neighbour came back off holiday, in the meantime, I made the hole in our chimney back to the state it was in before we noted the problem. Bubble wrap, and 'stuff' pushed up against it, along with a piece of metal stuck over it for extra protection. Then I went round and put the fire on. After a couple of hours the CO monitors began alarming.
So now she's back we called in the gas engineer. He took the fire out, and looked up as far as he could, but couldn't see any issues. But, and he didn't know this before, this flue had been moved quite a few feet about 25 years ago, when building work was done. It was then joined up to the existing flue. To really test this out, we removed the packaging from the hole in our house, and he put up a smoke bomb. There was as much smoke came through the hole, as went up the chimney next door, enough to set off our smoke alarm.
His view is, where the new flue was joined to the original one, would make a weak point and it's may there where a crack has appeared. The brick (mid feathers he called it - weird name), between the chimneys has almost certainly eroded over the years, and almost certainly this is where the fumes are entering our chimney. The way in which the new flue has been constructed - much too technical for me - means that it's not possible to have a flue liner installed.
One thing that I was very curious about, what was the reason for the hole in our chimney. They thought it may have been, when we had a liner installed 25odd years ago, if they had difficulty in pushing the liner through, they may have made the hole to help with getting it down the chimney.
The upshot of the story is though, the gas fire next door has been capped off and a warning label put on it. So sadly she will have to get an electric fire, and try to sell the gas fire being taken out. I have had look on various second hand sales websites and there doesn't appear to be much of a market for them. I guess she could have a flueless gas fire, but this one cannot be adapted for that kind of use.
It's been a bit of a worry one way or another, so I at least am pleased it's now solved. We still have to find a way to block up this hole but it's not such an issue now that it doesn't matter about fumes coming through.
So now she's back we called in the gas engineer. He took the fire out, and looked up as far as he could, but couldn't see any issues. But, and he didn't know this before, this flue had been moved quite a few feet about 25 years ago, when building work was done. It was then joined up to the existing flue. To really test this out, we removed the packaging from the hole in our house, and he put up a smoke bomb. There was as much smoke came through the hole, as went up the chimney next door, enough to set off our smoke alarm.
His view is, where the new flue was joined to the original one, would make a weak point and it's may there where a crack has appeared. The brick (mid feathers he called it - weird name), between the chimneys has almost certainly eroded over the years, and almost certainly this is where the fumes are entering our chimney. The way in which the new flue has been constructed - much too technical for me - means that it's not possible to have a flue liner installed.
One thing that I was very curious about, what was the reason for the hole in our chimney. They thought it may have been, when we had a liner installed 25odd years ago, if they had difficulty in pushing the liner through, they may have made the hole to help with getting it down the chimney.
The upshot of the story is though, the gas fire next door has been capped off and a warning label put on it. So sadly she will have to get an electric fire, and try to sell the gas fire being taken out. I have had look on various second hand sales websites and there doesn't appear to be much of a market for them. I guess she could have a flueless gas fire, but this one cannot be adapted for that kind of use.
It's been a bit of a worry one way or another, so I at least am pleased it's now solved. We still have to find a way to block up this hole but it's not such an issue now that it doesn't matter about fumes coming through.
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