Unfair dismissal?

[smileyhappy]

A friend of mine gave in his resignation to his employers on the 10th July, planning his last day to be the 11 August. He had saved up his leave allowance so he would be able to have it paid out to him as well, as he is then off travelling around the world for 6 months and has budgeted to work up until that point. But his employers told him yesterday that they would like him to work up until next week and then take his leave from then instead, obviously something which took him by suprise and came as a bit of a shock. Are they allowed to do this and what rights does he have in this kind of situation? Any advice would be appreciated!

[acw]

The question says that he wanted to work up until the 11th and then have his leave "paid out to him as well". 

I interpreted this to mean that he wanted to be paid for time after 11th Aug.  Say he has 10 days holiday owing to him.  He wanted to work the final 20 days, and be paid for that AND the 10 days holiday.  That's 30 days pay, which would run into time AFTER the 11th August unless he was being paid both for being IN the office and ON LEAVE at the same time!!!

I think I just made it all worse!!!

[MargeB]

I believe it says 'planning his last day to be 11th August', not 'he wanted to work up until the 11th'.

[acw]

I read more from "paid out to him as well" - implying that he wanted to work until the 11th Aug and be paid for it, and instead of taking his leave, receive cash instead.  All this has been said repeatedly above and it's agreed that unless varied by contract, there is no general  legal obligation to give pay in lieu of leave.  We did go over this a long while back in this thread. 

[MargeB]

anyone fancy a pint?

Its not correct, in my humble opinion, to look at it in terms of 'time/working time' after employment has terminated.

The company owes him holiday time. If they do not let him have the time by insisting he works, then they have to pay money in lieu. If he can take the time but refuses, it will almost certainly be detailed in his contract that he loses it.

I have to confess to having been in this exact situation, and having capitalized on it. Enormously.

[mystress]

Hi smileyhappy,

In my experience,when someone hands in their resignation a (good) employer will check how much leave they have left,and insist they take it before the resignation date.IF the leave due exceeds the resignation date,then the person either looses the excess leave,or they could (with the employers agreement) defer their leaving date so as to be able to use up all their leave.No employer is under any obligation to pay cash in lieu of leave.When this person knew they wanted to leave,they should have checked how much leave they had(whether it would be possible to take it all before resignation date)AND more importantly whther the employer WOULD pay cash in lieu of leave(not a normal proceedure).Too  many people just do not read their contract of employment!

[AllYourBase]

As am employer of many (young) people who seem to want to do this more frequently than ever, I can offer a little advice. Check your details and contract first. Explain the situation to your employer well in advance and also discuss things you HOPE may be possible, given enough notice etc.
Time and time again I see young people making assumptions about what they can and can't do, based on no real thought or judgement and an utter disregard for anyone but themselves. My advice is plan ahead, know the facts and communicate withyour employer and they will help you all the way. Many of my team are amazed at what elp I give and how flexible I am when they are open, honest and communicative. I hope they enjoy their travels!

[Sammy Snake]

It might not help at all but when I worked for a high street bank, I was due to be made redundant as at 31st December (voluntary).  I had a particular number of days holiday owing to me so it worked out that I actually left on 19th December but was paid to 31st (taking into account Bank Holidays like Christmas Day etc and leave I was still owed).

[acw]

Marge - I'd already gone for a pint by the time you posted that - sorry!!! :-)

I don't think they were insisting that he worked at all - I think he wanted to. 

As people have said - there is no implied term that obliges a company to give money in lieu of leave owed.  The only time there's an obligation is if they'd made such an arrangement in the employment contract.

Anyway - I think it's about time we put a stop to this circle! :-)  I can see us discussing this WELL beyond 11th August! :-p

[MargeB]

:-)

I'll send you the Links later.

[twiglet4frog]

i think he wasnts to quit his job, so he told his bosses ton the 1oth of July, that he wants to quit his job at Bogs Brushes but because of contract or personal reasons he will work 4 weeks notice to allow them time to replace him etc. So he states on the 10th of July to Mr Bog the owner he will work for 4 weeks of his notice and finish on the 11th of August as his last day employed by Bogs Brushes. Great, simple! Only he realises after he said that, the he is still owed 2 weeks of holidays this year and hasnt taken them, so thinks, when i finish on the 11th of August, will they pay me my 2 weeks that i never took cos i could have taken the holiday and got paid but cos i didnt i should get paid it still when i leave as i am allowed holiday pay, which  means 2 weeks extra wages when i finish on 11th august.

Only Mr Bog knows that he still has 2 weeks holiday and knowing that his once great brush builder now isnt that bothered about fitting the handles to the heads is slacking a bit and taking extra coffee breaks decides that the holiday that is owed is better spent letting him go 2 weeks earlier than the 11th august last day date but paying him until that date with his holiday entitlement.

So the question is, Can Mr Bog force him to take his holiday, if he cant is he legaly obliged to pay the once hardworking brush fitter any unused holidays as extra pay? Will Mr Bog replace his once great brush fitter with a newer and more improved worker? Should Mr Bog go automated and threaten other staff with redundancies? and will i get reported for trying to bring light hearted explanation to the question as i see it to help anyone confused as to what he means?

[acw]

Very nice little story twiglet4frog.  :-)

Such a shame you weren't here earlier when there was actually some confusion. 

The answer is now very clear - unless the contract states otherwise, mr brush will not have to pay his brusher maker for the holiday time.. he CAN force him to take the leave instead.  Well - actually he just doesn't have to give money in lieu of leave. 

Perhaps he could offer a lifetime supply of bog brushes instead!?! :-)

[smileyhappy]

After speaking to the Great Brush Fitter last night, I will set some details straight! Here's how it goes (twiglet4frog is spot on!): Brush fitter tendered his resignation letter to Mr Bog on 10 July, giving four weeks notice and planning and budgeting for his last day of work to be 11 August. He has 8 days leave which is still owed to him and he was under the impression (as was I) that this accrued holiday would be paid out to him. As many of you have now cleared up is not the normal procedure!! Thanks. Anyway, on wednesday afternoon Mr Bog informed him that his last day would be on Friday (as in today!) and that he must take his holiday leave from monday instead. Mr Brush Fitter felt disappointed that this was spoken about at such a late stage into his resignation but a lifetime supply of bog brushes might do the trick :)

[acw]

Thanks for the clarification smileyhappy!

I guess the moral of the story (apart from any pearls of wisdom about bog brushes!!!) is never to make ANY assumptions and to ALWAYS check your contract before you take action relying on what you THINK but don't KNOW is written in there!

Hope your friend enjoys his travels! :-)

[Gef]

I have just trawled my way through all 33 "answers" to this question and am dumbfounded. Some people seem to have understood straight away but others seem to be a little slow including one "working for a top law firm".

The way I see it is that you hand in one month's notice (say 20 working days) and then if you are due (say) 10 days holiday you only work the next 10 days but are paid for all 20. You don't work all 20 and then get paid for an extra 10 days. Clear as mud!

[twiglet4frog]

Mr Bog was helping the ex brush fitter by saying, "look here young lad! I appreciate that u bundled together 200 handles to the heads in one day once so as a bit of advice i better warn u that i wont be paying any holiday pay once u finish on the 11thAugust as u no longer work for the company and as i dont legaly have to pay unused holiday as the onus is on u my young laddie to use it while u work here, so rather than have u working fitting them XL2000 scrubamatic heads to the shafts why dont u get off son and spend the next few days down the pub or playing playstation while i pay u for it? What do u think?"

[acw]

Gef - I said that!! Ages ago!  You clearly didn't read.  And don't start with the patronising " "s.  OF course if you HAD read, you see that i said I was SITTING in a law firm at the time of typing.  I was on work experience.  So don't start - you horrible patronising person.  This thread was answered and settled ages ago, there was no need for you to come in and be rude!!!

[Gef]

acw, if you read your answers carefully (and there are lots of them) you will see that you have regularly changed your opinion and haven't already said what I said. You also don't appear to know the difference between July and August. Although Answerbank is a question and answer site it is inevitable that people will express opinions as well as give factual answers. If you don't like it go away and sulk.

[kazza12345]

blah blah blah.  Wouldnt it just be easier for you friend to amend his leaving date till 10 days after,  then he would be free from the time he wants to be, but still get paid his holiday pay?

[acw]

I only changed my advice as the details of the problem became clearer.  I do know the difference between July and August - or perhaps you failed to read the bit where I acknowledged my typo and thank another user for clarifying the point. 

I will not fall victim to the bullies like you on this site - if you don't like that, YOU can b*gger off and sulk. 

[Gef]

acw, the details are clear in the original question. Hope your shoulder is not too sore - it must be the biggest chip ever.