Same Sex Marriage

[mikey4444]

I, like most people I expect, am a bit confused over the current debate of same-sex marriage.

The ability to have a civil partner of the same sex has been on the statute book for a few years now.

1...If two men, or two women can become "civil partners" what will they gain from being married ?

2...What advantages over the civil partners arrangements that exist at present will they have under this new legislation ?

As I understand it, two people of different sexes can be married at the present time, in either a religious ceremony, or a civil ceremony, ie what we used to call a "Registry Office" do.

In other words, what will change ?

[Mattk]

They will receive equal rights in the eyes of the law whereas I believe that is not currently the case.

[bert_h]

You're quite correct, it's not an argument about anybody's rights, it's an argument about language. However, it's quite okay for a same-sex couple of civil partners to say "we're married", even if you and I think that's a misuse of the language; so if Parliament passes a law saying that it's okay for them to say that, nothing actually changes.

[Mattk]

I'm sure it does. In the event of a partners death the other partner has no legal rights to his estate whereas of course if they were married he/she would.

[Old_Geezer]

What is gained is a) the ability to upset those for whom a marriage has its traditional, tighter meaning, b) allows those who want a same sex partnership to pretend to be victims, and c) those who wish to seem on the side of the "minority" to be seen making a lot of noise pretending this is some kind of inequality issue. Trouble is, if you point out the emperor is not wearing any clothes you risk getting embroiled in a discussion that is nothing but hassle. As for what will change, the definition of the word should this come to pass. One would have thought folk would have greater compassion for their fellow citizens, and go spend their effort on some social unfairness that is worth fighting.

[Old_Geezer]

If that if true Mattk then the issue is not with marriage it is in the definition of a civil partnership. In any case if the same is not available to all, but only to those who have declared a partnership in some signing up ceremony, then the system is unfair and a poor one anyway. One ought not to have to jump through irrelevant marriage/civil partnership hoops to ensure the one, one loves has the same rights as others who have jumped and live together. Just nominate on the tax form; job done.

[bert_h]

Well, MattK, that's them playing with language, not doing anything about civil rights. There are laws about inheritance etcetera which refer to "married" couples, and when those laws were passed, it meant opposite-sex couples. Now these agitators for change want those laws, and every other organisation or company whose written terms and conditions include the word "married", to be saddled with the knock-on effects of THEIR new definition of marriage, even though the original text intended the traditional meaning. It just creates a minefield, and a gravy train for the lawyers.

[hc4361]

So they can marry in a church (but not the CofE).

[mushroom25]

interestingly, whilst heteros can be married in a civil ceremony, they cannot undertake to enter a civil partnership. this is another anomaly that peter tatchell pointed out.

[friedgreentomato]

Its about equality!!

[Peter Pedant]

Oh dear I must chip in my two penny worth
The act is here - Civil Partnership Act 2004

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/33

and is designed to give civil partner the same rights as those who are married.

So the survivor of a civil partnership has the same rights as a widow/widower.

CIvil partners have to be of the same sex - see early sections of the Act - but can be hetero. I am not sure if many heteros would wish to civilly partner another man but there is no impediment


and finally marriage.

I am completely confused what legislation in London has to do with religious ceremonies - this betrays my catholic origins I suppose - I am aware Acts of parliament control the Book of common prayer but I know of no legislation controlling roman catholic ceremonies (currently in force that is). There is the Ecclesiastical titles Act 1868 passed when the roman dioceses were refounded by Rome - very carefully and with different boundaries and names - and the Act declared they had no force in Law. The ministry was afraid that sundry Bishops would turn up tothe House of Lords and demand seats.

Other than that,I dont see that any English legislation can vary the orders of the Bishop of Rome to his Popish and Roman adherents. As for getting the Muslims to carry out gay marriages I await that with interest.

[DaisyNonna]

Surely the same sex marriage discussion and decision will not have repercussions on the entire country. In or out of Europe will.
Diversionary tactics.

[tamborine]

There are tax incentives for married couples with a maximum Allowance of £7,705.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/married-allow.htm#3

[mikey4444]

Thanks everybody, even those that didn't answer the legal issues in my original question, and decided to have a rant anyway !

I'm still not entirely sure what this new legislation will achieve, but the mists have cleared somewhat. Its being voted on today in Parliament, so we should all soon know what the situation is.

[Peter Pedant]

um um um tambourine
I looked at your posting and thought that the married allowance went - well years ago - at least ten and possibly twenty [years ago]

and and and if you look at the whole doc:
it says

If you are married or in a civil partnership and living together and at least one spouse or partner was born before 6 April 1935, the person with the higher income can claim Married Couple's Allowance


so in theory you are right and in practice
you have to be as old as Methuselah

[lairdoftheclan]

THERE IS NO TAX ADVANTAGE IN MARRIAGE AT ALL. The original idea was to encourage having children. Personally I think the same sex Idea is just an "I am a victim of prejudice mantra" Next you will have 12 year olds allowed to marry.