Does A Final Warning Ever Expire?

[buffymad]

My other half has been pulled in on various occasions about his sickness which culminated with a final warning in a meeting. He was told this would be followed up with a letter but never received anything.

Once the year is up - either from his last date of sickness or even the day of the last disciplinary meeting - does the slate get wiped or is he on a final warning forever basically?

[woofgang]

What does it say in the terms and conditions of employment?

[fiction-factory]

It's worth asking for a copy of the letter

[Marshwarble]

I'd imagine final warning carries onto eventual dismissal, I'm afraid.

[Baldric]

Can't see any point in giving a 'Final Warning' that expires!

[Maydup]

A final warning is usually applicable for 12 months. If he acheives a clean attendance record for 12 months it would be very difficult for the employer to refer to the final warning and they would need to start again. If on the other hand he has had a few days off here and there and is generally unreliable, he should expect to be at a diciplinary meeting again soon and face potential dismissal.

However none of it is as starightforward as that and is dependent on the circumstances and the illness. Is he on long term sick or is a irriegular attendence?

[Maydup]

Imagine Baldric, that a person has a final warning which is ultimately their last chance to sort out their attendence. Its related to their sickness record, but 5 years later he needs a few days off for a cataract operation. Would you sack him?

[Baldric]

Well if he's made it to 5 years later I would assume the final warning had worked, and you don't just ring up on the morning and say you're going in for a Cataract Op.

[fiction-factory]

IHi Maydup- you probably wouldn't sack him for a cataract operation but if it was 5 x 1 day's uncertified absences in a short period or several days off after drinking sessions the employer might say enough is enough

[Maydup]

I was just offering a simplified example in answer to Baldrics query, as to why a final warning might be considered as expired.

[fiction-factory]

And I''m just saying that even if the warning hasn't expired managers can and should treat each absence on its merits before deciding whether to invoke the next stage in the process

[Baldric]

/// in answer to Baldrics query ///

Er, I haven't actually queried anything, that was not a question!

[woofgang]

How long ago was the warning given? When I was involved in disciplinaries, the panel would decide how long the final warning should lie on file (there were guidelines) and this would be communicated to the person by letter, also of course a copy of the letter kept on file.

[Prudie]

Well firstly if he was told he'd get a follow up letter and didn't then HR would fail at any case they brought against him for dismissal. He needs to read the T&Cs or Personnel manual/policy. Where I am a final warning would 'finish' if attendance had reached an acceptable level within the timeframe but usually with the caveat in the follow-up letter that it could restart if attendance dropped off again. It's usually calculated on number of sick days in a given period but is on a cumulative scale. Eg over 15 days in a rolling 12 month period - just as an example.

[Peter Pedant]

Yes a final warning can or should expire - it should be in the T & Cs

I am surprised a final warning letter was not received but I wouldnt ask for a replacement

altho the other contributors seem to think that sickness should be the subject of disciplinary proceedings I do not ( NHS as an employer doesnt either ) - unless the sickness were feigned
[ altho there are provisions where the employer can fire someone for incapacity ]

and as prudie said it is usually on a rolling scale

and I have to ask - your husband isnt planning another bout of illness is he?

[fiction-factory]

In my experience PP disciplinary matters relating to absence are quite common and are done under the heading of capability since it's very hard to prove that absences were not genuine. In fact we used to have to stress that we weren't disputing the genuininess of the absence but the absences were affecting teh jobholder's ability to do the job. Employers shoudl try to help teh employee to manage their help and may arrange occupational health assesssments but, harsh as it seems , it's sometimes necessary to go throught o dismissal eventually for those who have particularly high regular absences (eg 50 days a year for 5 years)

[fiction-factory]

Maybe it is better not to ask for a copy of the letter as he may need that defence at some point - although if the employer can show the letter was issued I'm not sure where he would stand. But if the letter does have an expiry date for teh warning it would put their minds at rest

[buffymad]

It was just bad luck this year, he caught something or other going around so was off for a week, then he fell ill with something else and then was signed off with depression (although he went back to work sooner than needed). It took the company 2 months to get in touch and call him in for a disciplinary meeting! Yes I thought that might look bad on them that no final warning letter was ever received.

He was off ill last in March but the meeting was in May. Pretty sure his T&Cs say its on a rolling 12 month period - similar to my work.

He's def not intending to be off sick again but it's a bit worrying if he genuinely can't get in for a "proper" reason and that could lose him his job! Obviously if the final warning expires after 12 months, he can relax a little (but not too much!).

[Peter Pedant]

// In my experience PP disciplinary matters relating to absence are quite common and are done under the heading of capability since it's very hard to prove that absences were not genuine //

my employer coped badly with my absence ( of around a year )
and at one point asked why I hadnt attended for this and that
and I said:

because I was lying in a hospital bed being treated for carcinoma of the colon - but you know this as it was certificated .....

and I have to say i thought they might try to fire me as a result of capacity - but I was told later I had statutory protection

it really made me doubt the sanity of some employers

[thugulike]

It will say in the Discipline and Grievance policy how long a FWW lasts for. I have known them to be for life. The company (a large multi-national) was told by an Employment Tribunal to change that policy following a recommendation in the decision.

[Canary42]

Beware dodgy HR departments. When one of my staff suffered a complex fractured leg in Switzerland while skiing, I rang HR to advise them of her likely extended absence without sick note (she being hospitalised out there).

I found out later they recorded a broken leg on MY personnel record.