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Youth Caution
25 Answers
Advice needed please. The Police want to give my 11 year old son a caution for a Racially Aggravated public Order Offence. Details of the incident are; My son was in his local park with a group of friends of similar age watching and discussing You Tube videos/vines. During his conversation with his friends he was asked and he repeated 'have you seen the Allah Akbar Drop the bomb sponge bob square pants vine' We were called into the police station and my son was questioned under caution. Apparantly a lady in the park overheard what was being said, took offence and reported it to the police, she had taken a photograph of my son and now the police want to I with a caution which will be a criminal record. My son had no idea the lady was in the park, he explained to the police office he didn't know hat it meant and the police officer had to tell him. My son is 11 years old with Autism and Global learning difficulties. I really don't think my son has done anything wrong to warrant such a caution being issued. I am asking for advice as I don't know what will happen if we refuse the caution and take it further to the courts?? His statement was completely innocent, it was not aimed at anyone, it was not said with intent to cause harm and he was completely unaware any one was around. Do he police have enough evidence?? Thank you in advance. Poor and desperate cant afford legal advice and the clock is ticking. THANK YOU for any advice.
Answers
Let’s have a look at the law. I imagine the police are thinking of Section 5 of the Public Order Act. It says this (and I’ve left out bits that do not seem relevant from what you’ve told us): Harassment, alarm or distress. (1) A person is guilty of an offence if he— (a) uses threatening or abusive words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) [not...
12:20 Wed 23rd Nov 2016
Let’s have a look at the law. I imagine the police are thinking of Section 5 of the Public Order Act. It says this (and I’ve left out bits that do not seem relevant from what you’ve told us):
Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) uses threatening or abusive words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) [not relevant]
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.
(2) [Not relevant]
(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—
(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or
(b) [Not relevant]
(c) That his conduct was reasonable.
So, first of all were his words “threatening or abusive”. You told us he was asked and repeated:
“have you seen the Allah Akbar Drop the bomb sponge bob square pants vine'
Threatening? I think possibly not. If so, who was thretened? Abusive? Abusive towards whom? What was the nature of the abuse?
Then:
(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—
(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress,
“My son had no idea the lady was in the park, he explained to the police office he didn't know hat it meant and the police officer had to tell him.”
I think you need to establish precisely what is alleged. If the allegation is as straightforward as you have explained to us then I think it fails under para 1(a) in that it could not be construed as threatening or abusive. Even if the police are not with you on that then the statutory defence (para 3a) kicks in. Note that for such a defence to succeed you only have to show that your son had "...no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress," and NOT that there actually was not any such person.
A trip to the Citizens Advice Bureau may point you towards getting a free legal opinion. If that opinion concurs with mine (which is that I believe the police are trying it on for reasons that escape me at the moment) I would tell the police to place their caution where the sun does not shine. They can then decide whether to take your son before the Youth Court where a more reasoned decision might be reached.
Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) uses threatening or abusive words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) [not relevant]
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.
(2) [Not relevant]
(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—
(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, or
(b) [Not relevant]
(c) That his conduct was reasonable.
So, first of all were his words “threatening or abusive”. You told us he was asked and repeated:
“have you seen the Allah Akbar Drop the bomb sponge bob square pants vine'
Threatening? I think possibly not. If so, who was thretened? Abusive? Abusive towards whom? What was the nature of the abuse?
Then:
(3 )It is a defence for the accused to prove—
(a) That he had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress,
“My son had no idea the lady was in the park, he explained to the police office he didn't know hat it meant and the police officer had to tell him.”
I think you need to establish precisely what is alleged. If the allegation is as straightforward as you have explained to us then I think it fails under para 1(a) in that it could not be construed as threatening or abusive. Even if the police are not with you on that then the statutory defence (para 3a) kicks in. Note that for such a defence to succeed you only have to show that your son had "...no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress," and NOT that there actually was not any such person.
A trip to the Citizens Advice Bureau may point you towards getting a free legal opinion. If that opinion concurs with mine (which is that I believe the police are trying it on for reasons that escape me at the moment) I would tell the police to place their caution where the sun does not shine. They can then decide whether to take your son before the Youth Court where a more reasoned decision might be reached.
Wow.. Thank you all very much for your answers and advice. We have not been told under what section of the Public Order offence they wish to Caution my son! Have requested this information but has not been submitted yet. The police have told us they are 'scared' concerning incidents like this! and I briefly spoke to a solicitor who said that the police need to be seen to be doing something with racial associated complaints. The 'victim' was over 30 feet away from son with trees separating them. my son did not see her until she started taking photos of him and his friends. The police have said the 'Victim' wants the book thrown at my son and she is very traumatised by the whole event!!! I have looked at the Sections of Public Order NEW JUDGE I am in total agreement with you. We have now told the police we are not happy to accept the caution and we are now waiting to see what happens next. THANK YOU TO YOU ALL
NJ has correctly pointed out what is in the Public Order Act. It might be worth noting what, specifically, isn't in it. The Government originally intended the Act to include 'insulting' behaviour, where it might be construed that anything which insulted a person's religion would be an offence. However, after a great deal of protest, that term was removed from the legislation:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/14/insulting-section-5-public-order-act
It seems to me that the police are relying upon a piece of legislation (i.e. 'insulting a person's religion') which simply doesn't exist.
I can see no way that a Youth Court could find sufficient evidence for a conviction in this case. I'm confident that the CPS would take a similar view, so I can't possibly see how (if the caution was to be refused) the matter could ever be taken to court.
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It seems to me that the police are relying upon a piece of legislation (i.e. 'insulting a person's religion') which simply doesn't exist.
I can see no way that a Youth Court could find sufficient evidence for a conviction in this case. I'm confident that the CPS would take a similar view, so I can't possibly see how (if the caution was to be refused) the matter could ever be taken to court.
Good on you Mommy Fighter, refuse the caution and demand it goes to court.
Just one tiny point, the woman who complained could have no way to know your son was autistic so that can't be put into the case.
But it is true the Police seem to think they must act on anything that even looks as though it could be deemed 'racist' and often go 'over the top'.
I just can not see this going to court, the woman will have to be the main witness and explain how she heard all this from 30 ft away behind some trees.
Just one tiny point, the woman who complained could have no way to know your son was autistic so that can't be put into the case.
But it is true the Police seem to think they must act on anything that even looks as though it could be deemed 'racist' and often go 'over the top'.
I just can not see this going to court, the woman will have to be the main witness and explain how she heard all this from 30 ft away behind some trees.
mommy Fighter you MUST complain to the police about the failure to offer legal help, your sons being autistic makes it more serious.
Help to complain here
https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Documents/easyread/Easyread_How_to_make_a_complaint_about_the_police.pdf
I will take a large bet they back down as soon as you formally complain.
But I still think you have cause to sue them for emotional damage to your son. I think a 'no win no fee' solicitor would be happy to take this case on for you for free !
Help to complain here
https:/
I will take a large bet they back down as soon as you formally complain.
But I still think you have cause to sue them for emotional damage to your son. I think a 'no win no fee' solicitor would be happy to take this case on for you for free !
Apart from suing them it may also be a useful tool with which to get this ridiculous matter discontinued. It's scarcely yours or your son's fault that the police have to be "seen to be doing something" just because the allegation has religious overtones. They need to ensure that the course of action they are taking complies with the law. Cautions are available to allow people who are clearly guilty of an offence and accept that avoid a prosecution taking place. It is extremely arguable (from what you have told us) that your son has come anywhere near to committing an offence.