Licensing Laws and customer credit

[Peabrain]

Are Pub licensees allowed to give customers credit in order to keep them drinking when otherwise they would stop?

[Ethel]

They always have done, allowed customers to run an account - on the slate, on tick, whatever you want to call it.

I can't see that it's illegal if the pub doesn't charge interest - it is a private agreement between the two.

It is illegal to supply drinks to a drunk, and it may be difficult to enforce if the account isn't paid.

[Peabrain]

Thanks Ethel

[voltr4m4x]

I'm sorry, Ethel. But for once you are wrong ! Not often I can say that !

It is an offence under the Licensing Act, 1964 (as amended) for a licensee, or his servant, to grant or to offer credit to any person for the sale or supply of alcoholic liquor on or off the premises.

[Peabrain]

Thanks very much voltr4m4x

[Ethel]

Oh!

Thanks for that. I've just been used to seeing it so often all my life.

[loonytunes]

Err.....I don't know where you get your information but you are all wrong. It was an offence under the Licensing Act 1964 to offer intoxicating liquor on credit. This was repealed by the Licensing Act 2003 and, since 24th November 2005, credit sales of alcohol (intoxicating liquor no longer exists in legal terms) can be made.

[voltr4m4x]

I'm sorry, Loolnytunes, but you are mistaken.

You are absolutely correct of course in your statement that the 2003 Act repealed the 1964 Licensing Act, BUT
within the 2003 Act there is what we call in law an "embedded restriction" (in this case the appropriate part of the 1964 Act) which specifically refers to credit sales of alcohol and that part of the"embedded restriction" is continued under the 2003 Act. Therefore, it remains an offence to offer credit for the sale or supply of alcohol on or off licensed premises.

[loonytunes]

Yes, but most of those who transferred their licences under the Transitional Arrangements chose to give up their "embedded conditions", particularly if they appeared to be restrictive to future business. There was a discussion at the time between notable Counsel (I wont name him but he has written a book on the Licensing Act) and DCMS about what it all meant and they never actually agreed about what embedded conditions were. It is clear that the previous (1964) Act had, under Section 166, a restriction on credit sales which specified

"(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, a person shall not in any licensed premises, licensed canteen or the premises of a registered club�

(a) himself or by his servant or agent sell or supply intoxicating liquor for consumption on the premises, or

(b) consume intoxicating liquor, unless it is paid for before or at the time when it is sold or supplied...."

The 2003 Act redefined everything so there i now no such thing as intoxicating liquor (now alcohol), supply (there is now no requirement for a licence to supply), licensed canteens or registered clubs. It would therefore be impossible to retain the offence and carry it over to the new arangements.

The old Act has been completely repealed. The embedded conditions would only apply to licences which were converted within the timescales set down in Scehdule 8 to the 2003 Act and where the holders had not applied to remove them. In addition, all Premises Licences applied for and issued since November 2005 are not subject to the embedded conditions at all.

As a Council licensing lawyer and adviser to 2 Committees, I have officiated at over 500 licensing committee hearings and can say that, in no more than 20 cases, have I seen licences which make any reference to credit sales.

My original comments are therefore correct in relation to the original query.

18:52 Tue 20th Jan 2009

[Ethel]

So, can pubs give tick or not?

:)

[Jan1957]

I was a landlady Ethel. The answer is no.

[loonytunes]

If the embedded conditions preventing credit are carried over from the old legislation because, on conversion the licensee did not apply to remove them, no. However, if these were removed on conversion, at the request of the licensee, or the licence is a new one applied for and issued since 24th November 2005, yes. It will be detailed in the conditions on the Premises Licence , a summary of which must be on display on the premises. Faling that, the details are available fromthe Council as they must be kep on a public register which is inspectable free of charge.

Licenses rarely know what their licence says - in most cases, they don't even know what they have applied for as their solicitors have usually done it.

[Peabrain]

Thanks, All, for the interesting debate.