ChatterBank1 min ago
Is This Fair
134 Answers
"BBC Two's Mastermind presented by new host Clive Myrie is particularly interested in receiving applications from under-represented groups for the next series!"
Should they not take applications equally from everyone that applies?
Should they not take applications equally from everyone that applies?
Answers
As far as I can see no one is discouraging anyone from applying - simply saying that the selection process shouldn’t involve ethnicity.
13:25 Tue 27th Apr 2021
// //To an extent, Mastermind (and UC, Only Connect etc) are the wrong places to tackle the issue. //
Why? Do you think ethnic minorities are incapable of competing in those competitions?//
o god complete no sequitur again - both Jim - jo and I and a few others have been selected for university cock-up and it is not a matter of first come first served.
You want a balanced team for a start. ( and no not by colour) (*) (**)
the young winner of master mind captained his team to the second round on UC - showing results are prone to er variation
(*) Hull 1972 just chose cronies of the union president who just answered in funny accents. Bamber GG for it was he, was NOT amused
(**) The old baggaz UC which we unexpectedly won, we wanted to change the olympian ( who didnt know as an engineer that a quadrilateral had four sides) and were strictly told, that the olypians stayed but we cd change any ugly old jossers who werent telegenic
Why? Do you think ethnic minorities are incapable of competing in those competitions?//
o god complete no sequitur again - both Jim - jo and I and a few others have been selected for university cock-up and it is not a matter of first come first served.
You want a balanced team for a start. ( and no not by colour) (*) (**)
the young winner of master mind captained his team to the second round on UC - showing results are prone to er variation
(*) Hull 1972 just chose cronies of the union president who just answered in funny accents. Bamber GG for it was he, was NOT amused
(**) The old baggaz UC which we unexpectedly won, we wanted to change the olympian ( who didnt know as an engineer that a quadrilateral had four sides) and were strictly told, that the olypians stayed but we cd change any ugly old jossers who werent telegenic
"//To an extent, Mastermind (and UC, Only Connect etc) are the wrong places to tackle the issue. //
Why? Do you think ethnic minorities are incapable of competing in those competitions?"
Obviously that wasn't my meaning, as you well knew already. No, the point is that, whether there's an issue or not, it certainly can't be fixed from the top down. Same with disparities in top universities. Of course you can (and should) encourage everybody to apply and do your best to remove any barriers, but if there are systemic issues then they'll need to be addressed lower down. You referred earlier, for example, to the idea that maybe white working-class boys are among the most disadvantaged, which would need to be addressed at the level of schools, rather than (just) universities.
// Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps many people from ethnic minorities just don’t want to enter quizzes? //
Of course it has. But, if so, why? It may be a cultural issue that we can't address from without, but it seems at the very least complacent to assume that it's entirely everybody else's "fault". If there's anything that we can do to widen access, to encourage wider participation, etc, then it's worth trying. Every walk of life benefits from being as wide-open, and as inclusive, as possible.
Why? Do you think ethnic minorities are incapable of competing in those competitions?"
Obviously that wasn't my meaning, as you well knew already. No, the point is that, whether there's an issue or not, it certainly can't be fixed from the top down. Same with disparities in top universities. Of course you can (and should) encourage everybody to apply and do your best to remove any barriers, but if there are systemic issues then they'll need to be addressed lower down. You referred earlier, for example, to the idea that maybe white working-class boys are among the most disadvantaged, which would need to be addressed at the level of schools, rather than (just) universities.
// Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps many people from ethnic minorities just don’t want to enter quizzes? //
Of course it has. But, if so, why? It may be a cultural issue that we can't address from without, but it seems at the very least complacent to assume that it's entirely everybody else's "fault". If there's anything that we can do to widen access, to encourage wider participation, etc, then it's worth trying. Every walk of life benefits from being as wide-open, and as inclusive, as possible.
Jim, //You referred earlier, for example, to the idea that maybe white working-class boys are among the most disadvantaged//
That's verbal jimnastics again. There is no 'idea', or ‘maybe’ or ‘among’. According to that report they ARE the most disadvantaged.
//If there's anything that we can do to widen access, to encourage wider participation, etc, then it's worth trying. //
Ethnic minorities have the same opportunity as everyone else. If they choose not to take advantage of that who are you - or anyone else - to say they should?
//Every walk of life benefits from being as wide-open, and as inclusive, as possible.//
Some would disagree with that. Again your preferred world view - but not necessarily theirs.
That's verbal jimnastics again. There is no 'idea', or ‘maybe’ or ‘among’. According to that report they ARE the most disadvantaged.
//If there's anything that we can do to widen access, to encourage wider participation, etc, then it's worth trying. //
Ethnic minorities have the same opportunity as everyone else. If they choose not to take advantage of that who are you - or anyone else - to say they should?
//Every walk of life benefits from being as wide-open, and as inclusive, as possible.//
Some would disagree with that. Again your preferred world view - but not necessarily theirs.
// Ethnic minorities have the same opportunity as everyone else. If they choose not to take advantage of that who are you - or anyone else - to say they should? //
That's not what I am saying either. You seem to be wilfully missing the point. People are, of course, free to make their own choices about what opportunities they pursue, what hobbies they enjoy. But it's a simple chain of logic:
1. All other things being equal, any activity with a large enough participation should have a demographic that reflects the population.
2. That's currently not the case in many fields, when it is clear that there's no inherent reason for this.
3. It's incumbent on the fields to ensure that they have done their part, as much as they can, to address that.
If, at the end of this*, the imbalance remains, then maybe it's a product of cultural choices out of our control. But that doesn't, nor should it, stop us from addressing the factors within our control.
"That's verbal gymnastics again... According to that report they ARE the most disadvantaged."
If it's according to a report, then the report may be wrong, or flawed, or biased, or have measured things in the wrong way. No gymnastics, then: I'm just acknowledging that the report is not definitive (and, besides, I remembered that you'd referred to a report relating to this but didn't look up precisely what it is that you or it said.)
*NB, there's no such thing as "the end" anyway, this is a constant process.
That's not what I am saying either. You seem to be wilfully missing the point. People are, of course, free to make their own choices about what opportunities they pursue, what hobbies they enjoy. But it's a simple chain of logic:
1. All other things being equal, any activity with a large enough participation should have a demographic that reflects the population.
2. That's currently not the case in many fields, when it is clear that there's no inherent reason for this.
3. It's incumbent on the fields to ensure that they have done their part, as much as they can, to address that.
If, at the end of this*, the imbalance remains, then maybe it's a product of cultural choices out of our control. But that doesn't, nor should it, stop us from addressing the factors within our control.
"That's verbal gymnastics again... According to that report they ARE the most disadvantaged."
If it's according to a report, then the report may be wrong, or flawed, or biased, or have measured things in the wrong way. No gymnastics, then: I'm just acknowledging that the report is not definitive (and, besides, I remembered that you'd referred to a report relating to this but didn't look up precisely what it is that you or it said.)
*NB, there's no such thing as "the end" anyway, this is a constant process.
The only way a lot of your posts make sense is if you feel that in some sense, society as a whole has done all it could to address the imbalances and injustices of the past. In truth, though, we're never really at the end of that process. This isn't meant to be a despairing post -- there's nothing more positive, to my mind, than the idea that we can always do better.
Seeking to address underrepresentation in high-level quizzing shows is a bit of a niche, but, still: if you want to be sure that the person crowned at the end is the true Mastermind, I don't get why there'd be any objection to encouraging as many people to apply as possible.
Seeking to address underrepresentation in high-level quizzing shows is a bit of a niche, but, still: if you want to be sure that the person crowned at the end is the true Mastermind, I don't get why there'd be any objection to encouraging as many people to apply as possible.
//simply saying that the selection process shouldn’t involve ethnicity.//
And at no point has anyone said it does. Mastermind isn't a show where you can hide behind your ethnicity or gender. They're going to select the best candidates regardless of that, or they risk dumbing the show down with lesser contestants.
And at no point has anyone said it does. Mastermind isn't a show where you can hide behind your ethnicity or gender. They're going to select the best candidates regardless of that, or they risk dumbing the show down with lesser contestants.
If you mean the Bangor match, it was rather a lot less annoying than being completely unable to come up with the answer myself! The one that sticks in my head is some question about how high a ball can get if it was thrown at 20m/s and assuming g = 10 (answer: 20 metres). Not a tricky formula but for some reason in my head I got the symbols for speed and distance confused, so I couldn't untangle it. Can't blame all the other arts students for having a punt when the lone scientist doesn't offer much, but "1" and "2" were laughably poor guesses. I was seriously irritated that I knew all the wrong answers but not the right one :(
I'm not sure why you aren't allowed to post the videos, though, as long as you choose any of the matches that wasn't the Bangor one :P
I'm not sure why you aren't allowed to post the videos, though, as long as you choose any of the matches that wasn't the Bangor one :P
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