So I'm Reading This ...

[joggerjayne]

So I'm reading this book ...

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/oct/13/highereducation.news

It's giving me a whole new perspective on Wagner.

Apparently he never read Nietzsche. Reappraisal of Siegfried needed. And, contrary to his popular image, he was a bit of a trendy liberal leftie. He would probably have been a Guardian reader.

Yikes!!!

[FredPuli43]

But a Guardian reader who didn't think much of Jews!

[AB Editor]

I think it's safe to consider Wagner outside of the political uses of his art.

Some of the tunes are quite good.

[Peter Pedant]

one of his greatest fans said:
there is no such thing as too much Wagner

also a Jew-hater...A.H.
obviously in German given the context

[jno]

I'd never supposed Wagner read Nietzsche - you don't need to in order to get the idea of an Ubermensch, any more than you need to read Siegel and Shuster. The idea's just all round you in the cultural atmosphere, as I believe it was then.

I'm sure the Mail would have serialised Das Liebesverbot, though.

[FredPuli43]

Yes, it is not Wagner's fault that Nazi Germany found his works useful or inspiring, years after he wrote them and the Nazis came to power. But I have difficulty with a man who writes an opera cycle starting with a dwarf being beaten up :-) !

[jno]

as they say, an idea is not responsible for the people that hold it.

[joggerjayne]

Well, the dwarf doesn't get beaten up at the beginning.

He gets away with the gold.

Okay, maybe the maidens take the p!ss out of him a little bit.

[FredPuli43]

I thought the two giants forced Alberich to hand over the ring, none too gently, and that was near the beginning. Mind, it is years since I saw it.

[doctordb]

There's a lot to take in here JJ (feels as long as a wagner opera) but if you have the time it makes interesting reading. Media URL: http://www.danielbarenboim.com/journal/wagner-and-ideology.html
Description:

[joggerjayne]

Fred ...

Yes, that does happen. Although it serves Alberich right for gloating. It might have been Wotan and Loge who slap the little guy around and take his ring. Not that it was actually his ring in the first place, coz he plundered the gold from the Rhine Maidens. Fat lot of use they were as guardians of the gold.

[joggerjayne]

Thanks, doctordb

I love that sort of stuff.

[shoota]

Who is Wagner?

[jno]

shoota, he married Natalie Wood twice.

[shoota]

Sensible man.

[joggerjayne]

What kind of wood doesn't float?

No, never mind.

There's already a thread going about people being offended.

[sandyRoe]

This ring, could JRR Tolkien have pilfered the idea for his works?

[doctordb]

It does pose a difficult question JJ.

How does personality and ideology effect our appreciation of art?

[joggerjayne]

Certainly not.

Wagner's Ring is about a ring which is forged by the baddies and, if you wear it, you can wield great power. Then the goodies get hold of the ring. But, ultimately, the ring has to be returned whence it came, into a big pit of flames, so that mankind can be saved.

So nothing at all like Tolkien's Ring.

[sandyRoe]

No similarities at all, then. What could I have been thinking?