The War In Ukraine

[Khandro]

'Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will cost the global economy $2.8 trillion in lost output by the end of next year—and even more if a severe winter leads to energy rationing in Europe.'

With the outlook to be a continued process of slaughter for months, maybe years to come of life (human & animal) & destruction of habitation & infrastructure at a rate not seen since WW2. Is the loss of a small region of the extreme west Donbass regions of Ukraine (plus the Crimea, which has been Russian for 300 years) worth the prolongation, & possible risks of the use of nuclear & chemical weapons ?

[Peter Pedant]

//if by talking to them it could end a war then I would. //

isnt the whole point of this thread, that Putin is doing the war-war bit and no jaw jaw ?
I am er not misrepresenting the facts am I - or writing gobbledegooky?

[ichkeria]

Putin's "jaw jaw" is meaningless.
He can only be judged by his actions. Hence no point pushing the old "jaw jaw" but too much.
Remember those weeks of high level visits to Moscow by western leaders. "We have no intention of invading Ukraine" ...
Only a week or so ago: "Missile attacks on Ukraine have stopped for now" - the next day: "missile attacks on Ukraine.
So, you know, what's the point frankly.

[Spicerack]

Goebbels calling Ichi.
Some more rubbish for you.

//In April 2019, the Ukrainian parliament voted a new law, the Law of Ukraine "to ensure the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language". On 16 June 2019, the law entered into force. The law made the use of Ukrainian compulsory (totally or within certain quotas) in the work of some public authorities, in the electoral procedures and political campaigning, in pre-school, school and university education, in scientific, cultural and sporting activities, in book publishing and book distribution, in printed mass media, television and radio broadcasting, in economic and social life (commercial advertising, public events), in hospitals and nursing homes, and in the activities of political parties and other legal entities (e.g. non-governmental organizations) registered in Ukraine.[16] Some special exemptions are provided for the Crimean Tatar language, other languages of indigenous peoples of Ukraine, the English language and the other official languages of the European Union; as languages of minorities that are not EU official languages, Russian, Belarusian and Yiddish are excluded from the exemptions.[16]//

[Spicerack]

Some more homework for you;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505

[gl556tr]

I may have overseen this, but Putin was initially encouraged in his aggressive actions when Obama
'wrote a red line' in Syria. Nothing happened; Putin established a foothold in the Med for his navy and air force.

[davebro]

overseen or overlooked?

Putin will seize on any sign of weakness as encouragement to further his aggression.

[ichkeria]

All that stuff is about official state language spicerack.
Everyone can speak Russian in Ukraine if they wish to and most do.
But the Russian state is hostile to Ukraine and has been for years so there are bound to be legal measures against that

[Spicerack]

I hope NJ doesn't mind me posting this.
I was browsing through some old threads last night, as you do, when I came across this prescient prose.

Ditto, the less bellicose, ymb. ;-)


New Judge //Yes I think TWR’s suggestion is admirable. Leave them alone, let them get on with it. The result will probably be a partitioned Ukraine - no big deal. Those who want to align themselves with the Ruskies can go and live in the east or in Crimea, those who want to open a joint bank account with Bill Gates (sorry, align themselves with the EU) can live in the west. Russia is not going to cede control of its Black Sea naval port to a nation which is in bed with the EU.

We have seen in the last few weeks yet another example of a legitimate government being turfed out by people who have become fed up with them. Unlike western nations the electorate there have failed to grasp that democracy means not everybody gets what they want (and very often everybody gets what nobody wants). Once they join the EU that might become clear to them, though the planeloads of other people’s 50 euro notes that will be flown in to help them "rebuild" their country might help them become more amenable to the idea.//
12:40 Thu 06th Mar 2014


youngmafbog //There are problems in East Ukraine too TTT. So Ukraine will probably br carved up too.

Does seem the most sensible solution and minimizes life loss,//

[davebro]

BUT - Putin attempted to take over the whole of Ukraine by initially attacking Kyiv as well as invading the South & West.

That & his repeated shelling of infrastructure & civilian targets in undisputed Ukrainian territory has created a whole new ballgame IMV.

[douglas9401]

Oh Spicerack, you are a one.

[davebro]

// invading the South & West.//

I meant South & EAST obviously!

[Spicerack]

They would have no interest in occupying the whole of Ukraine, Dave.
It would be like occupying Afghanistan (again) only 10x worse.
Anyway, I was just pointing out how neatly that 8yr old post fitted into this thread.

[William51]

Countries have their own sovereignty if they are recognised by the members of the UN, and all Ukraine was recognised as an independant country. Putin is solely land grabbing and must be stopped.

[davebro]

Putin thought his forces could just walk into Kyiv, install a puppet government & he could do what he liked with Ukraine. I can't imagine how disappointed he must have felt.

[Spicerack]

I wasn't even looking for Ukraine threads when I practically tripped over that. ;-)

[Spicerack]

It's not as simple as you think, william. With all due respect.
Go and study the break up of Yugoslavia.