Is it time to abandon pinko liberal soft justice ?

[youngmafbog]

More and more we are we seeing that the right-on pinko liberal soft justice (incliding the liberal hush puppy wearing Clarke) is simply not working.

In New York they adopted zero tollerance - and it worked.

Is it about time we dumped the HRA and got on with dealing with these scum before it gets out of hand? Water Canon for riots, send in the troops to so called 'no go ' areas to flush out the gangs and lock the scum up for a long time when we get them.

To achieve this we need:
1) A Government which is not yellow bellied.
2) Sack all the right-on liberal judges
3) Dunp the HRA for a decent law.
4) Clear out the Police force of 'university types' and replace with proper coppers
5) Clear out the Police force of the corrupt officers (Jail them too for long periods)
6) Arm out police (once 4 & 5 are done).

[youngmafbog]

Congratulations SP. You are the only one who has bothered to answer my points and I respect your replies as you have some good points.

Point1, yes I would like to see more police on the ground and yes I wold like longer sentenceing in a non cushy jail, or at least sentencing to fit the crime. Also I would like a Government to takle rehabilitaion.

Point 2, true difficult to do, although what I am really getting at is to trim out the soft sentence judges not so much on their political beliefs. Perhaps this also goes under point 1 with better and harder Government guidlines and uniform sentences (yes difficult due to circumstance I agree)

Point 3. The HRA, as it stnads favours the criminal not the victim and this must stop. Thugs (including in schols) must not be allowed to hide behind it. That was not its purpose. Probably points 1 and 2 also cover this.

Point4, perhaps not fired but certainly the number going forward curtailed. High ranking coppers who have seen more street life would be better than idealogical types (bit of a sweeping stement yes, but I am sure you get my drift)

Point 6 The argument of an arms race is of course a reasonable one, but I am not sure we can continue to expect our police to be in the front line against knives and guns unarmed. Of course perhaps there is an argument to say we only arm in certain areas maybe.

Thanks again for your points of view it is a pity some others can't debate like you.

[sp1814]

youngmafbog

Thinking about it - I agree with you about the number of police on the streets. The only time I see a presence now is in tube stations (and not every day) in London.

I also saw a documentary last week called 'Coppers' (essential viewing - try and catch it) where it became apparent how much police time and effort is wasted on Friday and Saturday nights, trying to keep the peace amongst drunken clubbers.

I also agree on tougher sentences across the board, but especially for gun and knife crime. The law should support the notion that if you are caught with an offensive weapon, you should be treated as if you were actively looking to use it.

Minimum five year sentence.

[emmie]

Whichever you look at it, the police will always come off worse now, seeing how many people have lost faith in them, or their effectiveness. Arming all police isn't a great idea, i mean some could end up shooting themselves in the foot, and going on the stature of some, that wouldn't be far to go.
Corruption in the force cannot be done away with permanently as money talks, and no matter how good you are at your job, there could be an occasion when you end up stepping over that line, then its too late.
I would send the rioters to prison, on bread and water for a few months, don't see why they should get anything other than that. Unlikely that would happen as there are laws in place that prevent ill treatment of prisoners, look at Levi Bellfield who is suing, because he has been hurt whilst in prison.
The zero tolerance you spoke of, wasn't that the brainchild of one time Mayor Guillani, not sure, but there does seem to be something in that, as i read how many urban areas in NY, that were once considered no go, rife with gangs, drugs have been cleared out, and that is something that could or should be done here in London. Some of the gangs now have a number of areas in lock down, and you wouldn't venture there in the day, much less at night. This is not the city i grew up in, and no i don't like it much.

[jno]

the book Freakonomics makes the point that zero tolerance had no effect.What brought NYC crime rates down was the liberalisation of abortion laws 15 years or so earlier: it meant a generation of potential criminals wasn't born.

[Zeuhl]

Interesting point: who will be first to suggest contraceptive drugs in the Inner City water supplies?

[pa___ul3]

so to be a good policeman, height is more important than intelligence!? I understand that a taller copper might appear more intimidating on occasions but it meants nothing more than that in reality!
I once read an article about the hardest doorman in Coventry.. all 5'8" and 11 stone of him.
Are you also saying that, although we don't have a lot of faith in the current policemen we have, we should get rid of the educated ones, bring in the meat-heads, and give them guns!? No, nothing could go wrong there!!

[anotheoldgit]

Er, don't I deserve a mention Ma?

I also addressed your points.

[anotheoldgit]

pa___ul3

Er/ just because one hasn't been to university, doesn't necessarily make one a 'Meat Head' as you so rudely called them.

And that is what I was referring to, I said nothing of the being uneducated, so please stop twisting my words so as to get your own point across, thank you.

[Zeuhl]

Actually paul wrote:

<<we should get rid of the educated ones, bring in the meat-heads>>

No mention of university there - just a preference for 'education'

Perhaps Old Git should stop 'twisting' other people's words to get his point across?

[pa___ul3]

AOG - by 'meat-head' I meant big stocky buggas - as per your "they need brawn & height, rather than a university degrees" - meat-head is obviously a colloquialism so sorry for any confusion there.

[emmie]

we haven't made any progress really, kids were once scared witless by most policemen, who had authority, and a degree of do not mess with me sonny jim, and you didn't. Because if you cheeked or were rude to a policeman, then you would more than likely be marched home, and your parent would have had something to say or do about it. Now kids laugh at the police, and many of the parents are no better.

[lcg]

i agree with the op...but he forgot to mention rubber bullets (much more painful and perhaps a greater deterrent!) x

[Zeuhl]

Now that you 've provided a definition paul there is a problem ...

I knew quite a few 'Meatheads' AT university!

Who do you think plays Varsity Rugby?

Obviously the answer is to employ as police officers Educated Meatheads - they do exist.

[pa___ul3]

noo, because youngmafbog doesn't want any graduates, of course yours is the better idea but we're talking general sweeping statements here and people with degrees are weedy nerds and tall people without degrees are all hard as nails, no nonsense types... FACT!

[Zeuhl]

True Paul,

one of my neighbours is a 'Meathead' Police Inspector with a degree but he works in 'Police Intelligence' which even he says 'is a contradiction in terms' lol

[Backdrifter]

@OP: "Point 2, what I am really getting at is to trim out the soft sentence judges not so much on their political beliefs. " I think it's a mis-perception, fuelled by partisan media coverage, that there is a coterie of soft-sentencing judges. There are undoubtedly some who have given disprportionately light sentences but may then have levied tough sentences in other cases. It's too cut & dried to suppose you can isolate a group of serial light sentencers.

"Point 3. The HRA, as it stnads favours the criminal not the victim and this must stop." We get to hear about it when it can be made to favour criminals, or attempts to do so are made, but I'm guessing we don't get to hear about occasions when it does a perfectly good job. Modifying itn rather than dumping it, perhaps.

"Point4, perhaps not fired but certainly the number going forward curtailed. High ranking coppers who have seen more street life would be better than idealogical types (bit of a sweeping stement yes, but I am sure you get my drift)" At least you admit it's sweeping; too back-and-white, like the judges comment. How would oficers who are too "idealogical" be identified and then "cleared out"? Can graduates still be fast-tracked, if so then perhaps this could be removed.

There are important points to be made about this situation but (and I know it's a hiding to nothing to plead this on AB) the points can only be made when we avoid cliches and "binary" thinking, such as assuming that graduate members of the police will be less effective, or labelling each other as pinko liberals or racist reactionaries.

By the way jno beat me to it - there's a good case made in Freakonomics for the NY crime drop coinciding with a national US drop (whether the abortion law link they make is viable I don't know) thus suggesting the correlation with the zero-tolerance method is misleading.