Hanging

[joules99]

Seriously do you think hanging/the death sentance should be bought back. I dont think I've ever spoken to anyone who is against it.

[Philtaz]

So, as I asked, nobody can give me a reasonable explanation as to why Roy Whiting deserves 3 meals a day and a roof over his head, at great expense to the justice system.

This is a 'human being'(as someone said they ought to be referred to) who had already attacked a little girl, served half his sentence for that crime and actively avoided any form of help for his 'problem' whilst in prison.  The result was that he purposely built a van interior that contained cable ties, rope, a mattress and a bottle of baby oil.  He then abducted Sarah Payne.

Can anyone even try to comprehend the fear and torture od that poor little girl as he committed his vile acts?  Try to imagine being the parent who had to hear all the gory details of your daughter's physical and sexual assault being read out in a Court Room.

After sentence, Whiting gave a broad smile and a thumbs up from the prison van as he was driven away.

What help do the liberals on here propose we give Mr Whiting?  A course in vehicle maintenance? An NVQ in Nursery Management?  Help with his paedophilia and penchant for little girls is out because he has already denied himself that course.

I can only guess that many who have posted on here are not parents of young children.  You would feel differently if anyone contemplated carrying out such acts on your children, I can assure you.

For those who are looking for an executioner of this sort of animal, look no further. I wouldn't go for torture as others have as there is no need.   For the likes of Whiting and Huntley I could despatch both with a bullet through the back of the head, and still sleep soundly at night.

[pjm007]

Philtaz, I am a parent (father) and as you will see from my posts on this thread, I agree with you, but personally I think that the death sentance is too quick. I stand proud in saying that these 'sub-humans' need to endure the pain and suffering they've inflicted on innocent children. Incidently, I have started a new thread on the subject of paedophiles in the same topic, should you wish to become involved.

[Philtaz]

pjm007,

Will do mate, just checking the other categories before getting involved in the heavy stuff!

[delilahcat]

But Philtaz, you are talking as if this a NORMAL person who has rationally decided to carry out these horrific acts. That's just not how it works. Anyone who can commit crimes of this nature does not function in the same way that you and I do.

Nobody on this site has defended these actions, or said that Whiting and the rest shouldn't be punished. Everybody has great sympathy for the victims' parents - I know the pain and sorrow must be intolerable and I should imagine that their lives will never be the same.

But killing Whiting (or Huntley, or anyone else) will not solve a thing. It won't stop one more pervert murdering one more person. Trying to find out WHY they felt this horrific compulsion just might save other people going through the nightmare.

 "I have come to the conclusion that executions solve nothing, and are only an antiquated relic of a primitive desire for revenge which takes the easy way and hands over the responsibility for revenge to other people...The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off."

That was written by a bloke called Albert Pierrepoint. His occupation? He was the last official Chief Hangman of the United Kingdom, responsible for the deaths of some 450 people.

[Philtaz]

But delilahcat, the term 'punished' is used in the loosest possible terms!  He was NORMAL enough to reject therapy when he was in jail the first time!

What would you deem a fit and just punishment for a man who prowled the streets waitnig for a young innocent girl?  A man who in all likelihood bound and gagged his poor tiny victim, raped and possibly sodomised her as she screamed for mercy, then  strangled her with his bare hands as she scratched and clawed at him, begging for her life, wishing her mum would come and make the horrible man stop what he was doing to her.

Apologies if that's graphic, but that is how these crimes are carried out i.e. with extreme malice and violence.

He'd already sexually assulted one young girl and served 2 years from a 4 year sentence.  In those two years he rejected all attempts to counsell him.

Do you consider feeding and sheltering him for the rest of his life a punishment?  If you do then you need to wake up and smell what you are shovelling!

[delilahcat]

Listen to yourself Philtaz -'in all likelihood' 'possibly' - you don't know all the facts of the case so you'll make them up as you go along!

NOBODY is trivialising these crimes, everybody agrees they are horrific - repeating them over and over again isn't helping the debate.You are simply appealing to the worst in human nature. Two wrongs never have and never will make a right - it simply makes twice as much wrong.

[Philtaz]

From the person who was spouting about 'Christians'.

Doesn't Christianity condone an eye for an eye?

Also, what am I 'making up as I go along'?  Didin't you read the earlier post on Roy Whiting?  I'll find you a few links to press home the point.

[Philtaz]

http://www.bernardomahoney.com/forthcb/pdt/articles/spspttabobo.shtml

 

SARAH Payne's alleged killer kept a shovel, pickaxe, spade, tape, plastic ties and a bottle of baby oil in his van, a court heard yesterday. The items were discovered in Roy Whiting's white Fiat Ducato after he was arrested. Whiting is said to have killed Sarah, eight, and buried her in a shallow grave after kidnapping her in the van.

The 42-year-old car mechanic had an intimate knowledge of the isolated area where the grave was discovered, it was claimed. Dean Fuller said he sold the Ducato to Whiting in June last year, a week before Sarah disappeared.

Shown photographs taken in the back of the van. he said he recognised items which he had accidentally left behind. They included a sweat-shirt and a T-shirt. But he knew nothing about the spade, shovel or pickaxe.

Handed the plastic ties looped together in a figure of eight, he said: "These had nothing to do with me. Nor did the baby oil." Sarah's body was found in a shallow grave in a field on the edge of the A29, near Pulborough. West Sussex. 16 days after she vanished.

As I said earlier, apologies if it's all a bit graphic.  I'll leave you to use your imagination delilahcat, just as her parents had to in that courtroom.

What else am I 'making up as I go along'? I'm all ears!

[Philtaz]

Again, I'll ask you to answer the question:

What do you deem a fit and just punishment for Mr. Whiting?

[El D]

Phil, not being funny but you have posted details of the case like 3 times. Newsflash - we know that it's not nice. But appealing to an emotional reponse is not a valid argument, and to be honest its irrelevant when dealing with matters of justice. I can think of things which drive me insane but it doesn't give me the right to punish the people involved with systematic torture. All you have made clear is the depth of Whiting's mental irregularities. He feels no remorse - he doesn't feel any, course he wouldn't show it. The whole point of rehabilitation is to bring these people to see why they are wrong and change their perspective.

Let me make one thing clear on Whiting. He was born the same as you and me, even now he has the same blood, heart, lungs, brain. The only thing which work differently are his thought processes. He is not beyond help - currently our methods of rehabilitating paedophiles are inusfficient, obviously, they are at the highest risk of re-offending if memory serves. But this should not stop us trying, ever.

Prison at the moment, especially for 'psychological' offenders like Whiting, is a mix of punishment and rehabilitation. If we don't help these people we can never rid ourselves of the problems and crimes they bring. Personally for sex crimes, which tend to have a higher risk of re-offending, on this basis the prison term should be lengthened while receiving treatment, or at the end of the custodial sentence they should serve a necessary time in a mental institution. If they cannot be cured, they cannot be let out.

And yes that is a worthwhile use of money, because it is being used to help people and carry out justice. How is helping others any different to helping Whiting? They both desperately need it. Helping those who perhaps least deserve it is a good thing to do.

[El D]

Call me philosophical but I see society as a big person. Good points, bad points. We don't get rid of our undesirable traits through shooting them and thinking they've been dealt with. The only way to overcome our personal flaws is to understand why we have them, the same applies for these criminals and society. Money spent learning and helping them, despite the outcries of joe public, who quite frankly I regard as incapable of thinking through issues rationally, is a good thing . . .

[delilahcat]

You've completely misunderstood my earlier post about 'Christians'. I am not a Christian, I have no religious beliefs whatsoever (other than to find religion at best irrelevant and at worst, evil). I made the point that a lot of people who would bring back capital punishment would consider themselves to be Christians. Would that they showed the same compassion for their fellow human beings that Christ did (if he existed etc,etc)

El D I love your thoughtful, intelligent arguments, it's such a change to read something with some intellectual thought behind it instead of gut reaction.

[FP]

El D  I have been following this thread with great interest.  Once again, I admire your completely unemotional and reasoned arguments and find myslf agreeing with you and delilahcat on everything you say.  Bangkok's contribution was also extremely thought provoking.  I have 'socialised' with murderers in a prison environment at the end of their sentence, in a Cat C prison prior to release.  These people could have been hanged instead of being helped and retrained and becoming part of society again.   I am not talking about the likes of Huntley, etc., where I feel that they should be imprisoned for life (but still treated humanely). 

We are meant to be civilised and there are people on here talking about torturing as if it's OK.   It's true that if someone had violated my child I would want to kill them,  and probably would if I could!  Every parent would feel the same.  It's a basic emotional and primitive response.  However, we have laws.  Do we really want to bring back lynch mobs?  Violence breeds violence for sure.

I hold no religious beliefs.

[delilahcat]

FP, people like you and El D restore my faith in human nature.

It's a complete mystery to me how people who would happily torture another human being (or any living thing) can imagine themselves to be better than the people they are vilifying here.

[eupraxia]

PHiltaz.

We have all heard the story you quote.

If prison was exactly what it is supposed to be the cost to the tax payer wouldn't be that much really.

To kill the man would be the as quoted by some one else in these pages "the easy way out"

He would be free of all worldly troubles, never to have to think or contemplate what he has done. Never to have to suffer anything. whats more it would be over in minutes. A long time alone with no human conact, other than the hand that brings u ur twice daily rashons,  and nothing to do would force him to think of it. As would be the case with lots of other murderers.

Prison is the problem these days with the Pc brigade banging on about prisoners rights. You lose all rights to being treat like a human when you take some one elses life for no other reason than to satisfy your own needs.

Which I might add is exactly what the death penalty is. It's satisfing the masses need. As I said before why would anyone want to lower themselves to the level of the criminal.

I should point out that I am not speaking as some one whos life has never been touched by crime. I have been touched by it in one of the worst ways possible.

Eupraxia

[eupraxia]

I would also like to add Phitaz that I am a mother of 4 wonderful children who have suffered the worst of humanity. They have grown with a healthy respect for life and all the GOOD things it can offer.

But even so you seem to think that any one without children doesn't understand. You couldn't be more wrong. Its just the death penalty will not solve the promblem.

Eupraxia

[Philtaz]

Yes El D I had to post it that often because someone (not you) accused me of 'making things up' as I went along.  Exactly what wasn't established, was it delilahcat?

Also, who mentioned systematic torture?  Not I.  You may want to go back and look at the posts in order to refresh your memory.

The whole point of rehabilitation is to bring these people to see why they are wrong and change their perspective.

WHAT?  Haven't you been reading the posts?  Whiting DENIED treatment of his own volition when he was in jail for the first time for sexual assault on a young girl, so how do you propose to treat him against his will?  I'm really interested in the answer to that one!

eupraxia, you need to remove those rose coloured spectacles .  After a certain length of time, these people are 'moved on' to a softer prison, where they are allowed to lead some form of normality, wear their own clothes and stroll the grounds of the establishment they are in.  Look no further than Hindley for that example.

[Bangkok]

Those referring to the cost of keeping convicts alive should note the US experience that is substantially more expensive to kill someone, and that the most common cause of death of those on death row are natural causes.

Also, those advocating the death penalty, and in some cases offering to carry it out, should stop and reflect.  If your child, in a fit of depression / despair killed a violent partner and their children, would you advocate the death penalty?  If those stating they could carry out the sentence could not do it to a relative or friend then please stop preaching their willingness.

[delilahcat]

Read your own post which I referred to, Philtaz, for the answer to which things you were making up. I thought I'd made it clear - you make 2 allegations using the words 'in all likelihood' and 'possibly'. I took this to mean that you didn't KNOW these things, you were simply making suppositions. If you were at the trial and therefore heard all the evidence, then obviously I apologise.

The man responsible for more executions in this country than anyone else eventually realised that it solves nothing. I have to agree with him. I have to believe that humans should operate above the level of savages, and use rational thought and intelligence to deal with these problems. I don't understand why you think it's wrong for people like Whiting to give in to their urges (SO DO I!), but okay for you and pmj007 to give in to your urges (in your case string them up, in pmj's torture them).

I DO understand the feelings of revulsion these crimes engender. They make me feel sick, too. But I have to say that some of the posts on here frighten and sicken me as well. As FP says, violence breeds violence.

[Philtaz]

Poor analogy Bangkok. 

Firstly, can we have a link proving that it is more costly to carry out the death penalty in the USA?  The possible reason that more people die of natural causes is because of the lengthy appeals that many mount.  I fail to see how it would cost more to execute someone within a week of sentence(which is what Whiting, Huntley and Cook deserve) than to keep them alive for the term of their natural life.

Secondly, killing someone in a fit of rage or depression is worlds apart from actively stalking, targetting, planning the abduction and raping a child for sexual gratification, then subsequently murdering them.

delilahcat,

What a load of tosh. 

I don't understand why you think it's wrong for people like Whiting to give in to their urges............

...........but okay for you and pjm007 to give in to your urges.

Eh?  I wouldn't be giving in to my urges like Whiting, I'd be carrying out a right and proper sentence on a convicted child sex attacker.  Your confusing criminal behaviour with proper penal punishment.