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Yet another typical example of Britain in 2012
63 Answers
http://www.dailymail....estaurant-toilet.html
Are we not learning anything from the actions of some of our young, what is the answer to prevent these increasing vile actions, what is the reason for it, do youngsters know far too much about sex these days?
Don't anyone dare say "it is no different now to what it was in the past" or that old chestnuts, "these sort of things are more reported than they were in the past".
What we need are answers, not excuses.
Are we not learning anything from the actions of some of our young, what is the answer to prevent these increasing vile actions, what is the reason for it, do youngsters know far too much about sex these days?
Don't anyone dare say "it is no different now to what it was in the past" or that old chestnuts, "these sort of things are more reported than they were in the past".
What we need are answers, not excuses.
Answers
Are we not learning anything from the actions of some of our young
It would appear that what a small minority of young people are doing is viewing vulnerable girls as 'easy game'. What we *should* learn from this is that we now have an overly sexualised teenage population, where sex is something of a sport - and more worrying is the 'gang bang' mentality. Is...
It would appear that what a small minority of young people are doing is viewing vulnerable girls as 'easy game'. What we *should* learn from this is that we now have an overly sexualised teenage population, where sex is something of a sport - and more worrying is the 'gang bang' mentality. Is...
13:35 Thu 01st Mar 2012
At one level religion is effective at controlling populations however it doesn't prevent all 'savagery'. In victorian times church attendance was over 90% but crime, assaulty, sexual assault etc were rife and much of this behaviour was actually sanctioned by the establishment - including The Church of England.
And let's remember that most Nazis were devout Catholics who managed to apply their religious beliefs to the extermination of other faiths.
Whilst social control has its benefits I don't think it's possible - or desirable - to base them on superstitions and fairy stories such as the 'be good - god is looking down at you' nonsense which not only demeans both parties but is also proven to be unsustainable and unreliable.
And let's remember that most Nazis were devout Catholics who managed to apply their religious beliefs to the extermination of other faiths.
Whilst social control has its benefits I don't think it's possible - or desirable - to base them on superstitions and fairy stories such as the 'be good - god is looking down at you' nonsense which not only demeans both parties but is also proven to be unsustainable and unreliable.
@AoG - These are extreme actions - gang rape of a teenager by other teenagers can not be described as typical behaviour, so it is inaccurate to judge the state of our society, and our youth, by this yardstick.
Nor does increasing secularism or dwindling belief in god explain the situation. Atheism does not promote anti-social behaviour or worse - rather the opposite, i would have thought.
These sort of actions are disgusting and are to be condemned unreservedly. It does, in my opinion, almost always come back to the parenting, and secondarily to insufficient discipline in schools - but look at a violent young offender today, and I think it very likely you will find them a product of a dysfunctional family.....
Nor does increasing secularism or dwindling belief in god explain the situation. Atheism does not promote anti-social behaviour or worse - rather the opposite, i would have thought.
These sort of actions are disgusting and are to be condemned unreservedly. It does, in my opinion, almost always come back to the parenting, and secondarily to insufficient discipline in schools - but look at a violent young offender today, and I think it very likely you will find them a product of a dysfunctional family.....
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Incidentally, I think the title of this thread is a little skewed.
This is an atypical example of Britain in 2012, and we should not allow ourselves to believe that this is as representative of the way teens act, in the same way that we did not allow ourselves to believe that the killers of Jamie Bulger were in any way representative of children in the early 90s.
This is an atypical example of Britain in 2012, and we should not allow ourselves to believe that this is as representative of the way teens act, in the same way that we did not allow ourselves to believe that the killers of Jamie Bulger were in any way representative of children in the early 90s.
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AOG
"The atheists amongst us may pour scorn on this, but was it wrong for us to be 'God fearing, Men, Women, and Children'?"
The whole point about religious observance (and this goes beyond Christianity) is that followers should comport themselves in a way that promotes a happy, fulfilled and stable society.
However, I would also argue that the decline in popularity of Christian observance has more to do with our reliance on science for answers and our 'live and let live attitude' to certain socio-sexual idioms.
That last sentence was WAY too 'Guardian-y' for it's own good, but I couldn't think of any other way of putting it.
"The atheists amongst us may pour scorn on this, but was it wrong for us to be 'God fearing, Men, Women, and Children'?"
The whole point about religious observance (and this goes beyond Christianity) is that followers should comport themselves in a way that promotes a happy, fulfilled and stable society.
However, I would also argue that the decline in popularity of Christian observance has more to do with our reliance on science for answers and our 'live and let live attitude' to certain socio-sexual idioms.
That last sentence was WAY too 'Guardian-y' for it's own good, but I couldn't think of any other way of putting it.
waterboatman
I have to disagree with your conclusions there - I would be *extremely* surprised if these lads, if found guilty, did not receive a stiff custodial sentence.
...unless of course they're in front of one of those dopey judges who believes that 11 year old girls are somehow sexually culpable in these acts.
I have to disagree with your conclusions there - I would be *extremely* surprised if these lads, if found guilty, did not receive a stiff custodial sentence.
...unless of course they're in front of one of those dopey judges who believes that 11 year old girls are somehow sexually culpable in these acts.
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Zeuhl
/// At one level religion is effective at controlling populations however it doesn't prevent all 'savagery'.///
Yes I agree of course it doesn't, but amongst most 'ordinary men in the street', people no matter how poor, toed the moral line, much more than can be see today.
Come the Sabbath, all shops were closed, children were not allowed to play in the street, one could not even play cards, in one's home.
All pubs and entertainment venues, imposed strict opening and closing hours.
Most would don their Sunday best even though they had to retrieve them first from the pawnbroker on the Saturday and take them back in on the Monday.
Children would go along to Church in the morning with their parents and then along to Sunday School in the afternoon.
Marriage was sacrament, and couples 'living in sin' would be frowned upon.
These are typical examples were religion instilled a certain amount of discipline on the masses.
Of course there are examples of adults doing un-speakable things all in the name of religion, that has been widely shown throughout history.
But I was mainly talking about the actions of some of the youth of today, but having said that, there could also be lessons to be learned for some of today's adults.
Your examples of
/// At one level religion is effective at controlling populations however it doesn't prevent all 'savagery'.///
Yes I agree of course it doesn't, but amongst most 'ordinary men in the street', people no matter how poor, toed the moral line, much more than can be see today.
Come the Sabbath, all shops were closed, children were not allowed to play in the street, one could not even play cards, in one's home.
All pubs and entertainment venues, imposed strict opening and closing hours.
Most would don their Sunday best even though they had to retrieve them first from the pawnbroker on the Saturday and take them back in on the Monday.
Children would go along to Church in the morning with their parents and then along to Sunday School in the afternoon.
Marriage was sacrament, and couples 'living in sin' would be frowned upon.
These are typical examples were religion instilled a certain amount of discipline on the masses.
Of course there are examples of adults doing un-speakable things all in the name of religion, that has been widely shown throughout history.
But I was mainly talking about the actions of some of the youth of today, but having said that, there could also be lessons to be learned for some of today's adults.
Your examples of
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Don't know whether this is more common than it was, but it was certainly common in London, even 40 years ago. It's about treating the girl has a possession and it's about power over her. The same kind of young men in gangs were doing it then as now.
I do venture to suggest that while the rape of the victim, a stranger, in one isolated attack,by several men has been in existence for a very long time, this particularly type of offence is a postwar crime, not noted much, if at all, before the 1950s. Typically, the girl is known to one of the gang before and has been associated with him. This girl was exceptionally young, but otherwise the pattern is familiar; I doubt whether she was a stranger to any involved.
I do venture to suggest that while the rape of the victim, a stranger, in one isolated attack,by several men has been in existence for a very long time, this particularly type of offence is a postwar crime, not noted much, if at all, before the 1950s. Typically, the girl is known to one of the gang before and has been associated with him. This girl was exceptionally young, but otherwise the pattern is familiar; I doubt whether she was a stranger to any involved.
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