Germany has seen sense, they have banned circumcision on the grounds of religious beliefs. Why has it taken so long for a government to realise it is child abuse?

[dabees]

http://www.guardian.c...-jewish?newsfeed=true

[anotheoldgit]

This subject was discussed extensively on my thread " Female circumcision" way back in April.

http://www.theanswerb.../Question1127039.html

[ludwig]

As people have said above, female genital mutilation is different aog. It's just about possible to make a dodgy case for the male version on health grounds, but no civilsed person could defend the female equivalent.

[naomi24]

//up to 90% of US males are circumcised. //

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[cathfromsaron]

can they not regulate and introduce standards to the accepted religious practice, rather than ban it and drive it underground?

[mike11111]

From what little knowledge I have there seems to be a world of difference, both in intent and practice, between male and female circumcision. How ironic that this pronouncement should come from a German judge!

[tommy-h]

If male circumcision were made illegal in this country how long before pressure groups came up with absolute proof of health benefits later in life,After all did this not happen when abortions were difficult to come by in the 60s and all of a sudden perfectly normal girls and women were at risk of mental and physical breakdowns if they continued with their pregnancy.Abhorrent as it is parents who want to inflict this practice on their offspring will find a way even if it means shopping abroad.

[Old_Geezer]

I've never felt that the risk that folk will break the law was reason enough to fear bringing it in. But I agree one has to police these things well and with determination. Difficult to hide the evidence though, if specifically looked for.

[naomi24]

This is an unnecessary surgical procedure performed without the victim's consent - and as such, it is child abuse.

[mike11111]

What emotive language! Victim! A minor cannot give consent to any surgical procedure, necessary or otherwise. The consent of the parents is valid in law.I await with interest reports of any physical or psychological damage caused to a boy as a result of infant circumcision.

[China Doll]

FGM is illegal in this country, including taking your child out of the country to do it. However if you emigrate here and have undergone FGM then that is not illegal.

We do have patients who phone the urology department here to ask for circumcisions on religious grounds but we do not accept those. I can not remember if this is a nationwide policy or not though. They are still done on medical grounds.

I do think if it must be done then I would prefer a professional to do it. I've seen what can happen on bodge jobs. I don't particularly agree with it (until you're an age that can decide for yourself), but I know that I don't want it being done in the back-streets either or driven underground. It's tricky.

[naomi24]

Mike, why emotive? Like anyone who has no choice, but is personally affected by someone else's decision, a child subjected to an unnecessary surgical procedure is a victim.

[mike11111]

I consider ear piercing to be in the same vein - an unnecessary surgical procedure. When that is banned in this country to all under the age of consent then I will listen to the arguments about male circumcision. Don't get me started on tattoos!

[NOX]

There is plenty of written material about the psychological effects of male circumcision mike1111, this link will cover it very briefly but link you to other resources- and comparing circumcision to getting your ears pierced is beyond silly- holes in your ears heal up and are un-noticeable- your foreskin doesn't magically reappear if you don't want to be circumcised anymore.

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

[mike11111]

Quite subtle of the Germans, really. Having realised that the gas chambers were not the final solution, what better way to attack the Jews than by undermining their customs, under the holier-than-thou umbrella of the Human Rights Act?

[NOX]

What a stupid, xenophobic answer mike. I can tell you that in Germany every care and respect is afforded the Jewish community (I am in Germany as I type visiting my Jewish ex wife and daughters) and is is very brave indeed of the judges involved in this case not to allow themselves to be pressurised into making the wrong decision because a minority of people like yourself have outdated and biased views regarding anti-semitism in Germany. Your remarks are really unpalletable.

[ludwig]

// I await with interest reports of any physical or psychological damage caused to a boy as a result of infant circumcision. //

If lack of physical or psychological damage is the only criteria we're applying to decide if something's ok, that's going to make plenty of unsavoury and immoral things acceptable - as long as they're done when the victim's unconscious.

[sandyRoe]

What qualifications do most mohels have now? A law banning circumcision can hardly drive it into the hands of unqualified people when that's who are doing it now.

[naomi24]

Mike, what a completely stupid thing to say. Utterly shameful!

[mike11111]

"What a completely stupid thing to say. Utterly shameful!"

The archetypical atheist response to anything to which they have no answer.

[naomi24]

Perhaps you should stop before you make an even bigger fool of yourself, Mike.