Body & Soul1 min ago
'Down's syndrome girl', 11, faces death penalty
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/// In July, thousands of people dragged a Pakistani man accused of desecrating the Koran from a police station in the central Pakistani city of Bahawalpur, beat him to death and then set his body on fire. ///
When are countries such as this and their people going to join us in the 21st century?
/// In July, thousands of people dragged a Pakistani man accused of desecrating the Koran from a police station in the central Pakistani city of Bahawalpur, beat him to death and then set his body on fire. ///
When are countries such as this and their people going to join us in the 21st century?
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joeluke - no she wouldn't...but then, perhaps that's because we've rapidly she'd our reliance on religion to dictate our lives. Some see that as a good thing and some see that as an element of our 'moral decay'.
Personally, I see it as the 'fault' of science. When we have the means to explain practically everything, the number of people who need religion to define the world around them falls.
Personally, I see it as the 'fault' of science. When we have the means to explain practically everything, the number of people who need religion to define the world around them falls.
joeluke
I don't think that they regard the Koran as 'a book'. My understanding is that in a very literal sense, it's burning the word of Allah himself. I don't think we have an equivalent here...it's not like burning a copy of 'Fifty Shades Of Grey'.
I don't think we can truly understand the depth of religious fervour that Islam engenders in its followers.
Our nearest equivalent is 'The X Factor'.
I don't think that they regard the Koran as 'a book'. My understanding is that in a very literal sense, it's burning the word of Allah himself. I don't think we have an equivalent here...it's not like burning a copy of 'Fifty Shades Of Grey'.
I don't think we can truly understand the depth of religious fervour that Islam engenders in its followers.
Our nearest equivalent is 'The X Factor'.
"I don't think that they regard the Koran as 'a book'. My understanding is that in a very literal sense, it's burning the word of Allah himself."
But they're wrong. And that's not a statement of opinion - insofar as we can know anything about anything, we can say with utmost confidence that their belief is incorrect.
I have to say, I'm not actually all that uncomfortable with the idea of saying our society, on this plane of comparison, is better/superior. As Sam Harris points out - we can pretty reliably ascertain some things which are conducive to human flourishing and some things which are not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to condemn people to death for burning pages of books that are deemed holy by others? Probably not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to severely punish little girls who may not understand their actions? Probably not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to teach people that it's perfectly acceptable to threaten with violence people who commit what they personally deem blasphemy? Probably not.
On this level, our society, at the present time, is better than a society which does these things because it means that our society is more conducive to human flourishing. I don't really see what's problematic about that conclusion at all.
But they're wrong. And that's not a statement of opinion - insofar as we can know anything about anything, we can say with utmost confidence that their belief is incorrect.
I have to say, I'm not actually all that uncomfortable with the idea of saying our society, on this plane of comparison, is better/superior. As Sam Harris points out - we can pretty reliably ascertain some things which are conducive to human flourishing and some things which are not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to condemn people to death for burning pages of books that are deemed holy by others? Probably not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to severely punish little girls who may not understand their actions? Probably not.
Is it conducive to human flourishing to teach people that it's perfectly acceptable to threaten with violence people who commit what they personally deem blasphemy? Probably not.
On this level, our society, at the present time, is better than a society which does these things because it means that our society is more conducive to human flourishing. I don't really see what's problematic about that conclusion at all.
Suggesting superiority? No I don't think so simply it means we are a little more open minded, enjoy free speach and can debate these things, such as on this site. Can you imagine this thread in Pakistan or Iran? We would all be dragged out an murdered (becasue that is what it is)
Religion thrives on ignorance and the middle east through often extreme poverty has plenty of this. There are many that have no value of live after all 'there are plenty more where they came from'.
will they join us 'in the 21st C'? Yes I believe so. Communication even to the poor is increaSING rapidly and along with that knowledge and understand will prevail. It wont be in my lifetime and it wont be all (Lets not forget we have plenty of religious nutters, even if they dont murder, in the West all fervently believing in a Fairy Story)
Religion thrives on ignorance and the middle east through often extreme poverty has plenty of this. There are many that have no value of live after all 'there are plenty more where they came from'.
will they join us 'in the 21st C'? Yes I believe so. Communication even to the poor is increaSING rapidly and along with that knowledge and understand will prevail. It wont be in my lifetime and it wont be all (Lets not forget we have plenty of religious nutters, even if they dont murder, in the West all fervently believing in a Fairy Story)
"Communication even to the poor is increaSING rapidly and along with that knowledge and understand will prevail."
I completely agree.
One interesting case study in this has been the recent annual 'Draw Mohammed Days' that have been staged online:
http://
There have been three such events, each of which has basically involved thousands of people across the internet drawing cartoons depicting Mohammed in protest against the initmidation of conventional media in cases like Salman Rushdie/the Danish cartoons etc.
DMD 2010 caused an attempt to censor facebook and various other websites on the part of the Pakistani govt - it was revoked within 2 weeks. DMD 2011 caused an attempt by the Pakistani govt to ban twitter - which was revoked in hours. For the few who have access to it in Pakistan (and this is very likely to increase), the internet has been an unstoppable force for freedom of expression that the government is unable to touch.
As one prominent youtuber put it - the internet is the place where religions come to die.
I completely agree.
One interesting case study in this has been the recent annual 'Draw Mohammed Days' that have been staged online:
http://
There have been three such events, each of which has basically involved thousands of people across the internet drawing cartoons depicting Mohammed in protest against the initmidation of conventional media in cases like Salman Rushdie/the Danish cartoons etc.
DMD 2010 caused an attempt to censor facebook and various other websites on the part of the Pakistani govt - it was revoked within 2 weeks. DMD 2011 caused an attempt by the Pakistani govt to ban twitter - which was revoked in hours. For the few who have access to it in Pakistan (and this is very likely to increase), the internet has been an unstoppable force for freedom of expression that the government is unable to touch.
As one prominent youtuber put it - the internet is the place where religions come to die.
sp1813
/// But on a serious (as opposed to the 'bash the Muslims' narrative), I hope the exposure this story has generated inspires leaders to condemn Pakistan and save this girl. ///
Bring up six million Jews, gypsies and homosexuals who were gassed to death in concentration camps, British Royalty Nazi Sympathisers, Italy's involvement, and actions on the Russian front?
Another typical response we have come to expect from sp.who will blame anything or anybody rather that those in question, has he forgot what some will do to homosexuals, not in Hitler's Germany but in certain countries in the Middle East.
How else can one not 'Bash the Muslims' when the perpetrators in this case happen to be Muslims, had it had been Catholics, Jews, or homosexuals who stood accused, would that had also been 'bash the Catholics', 'Bash the Jews', or 'Bash the homosexuals'?
This poor girl's life is in danger even if ther Pakistani authorities set her free, given the chance the 'MOB' will track her down and set fire to her.
And yes I think we in the West are superior to those that can meter out this kind of justice with no feelings whatsoever, they are nothing more than 'savages'.
/// But on a serious (as opposed to the 'bash the Muslims' narrative), I hope the exposure this story has generated inspires leaders to condemn Pakistan and save this girl. ///
Bring up six million Jews, gypsies and homosexuals who were gassed to death in concentration camps, British Royalty Nazi Sympathisers, Italy's involvement, and actions on the Russian front?
Another typical response we have come to expect from sp.who will blame anything or anybody rather that those in question, has he forgot what some will do to homosexuals, not in Hitler's Germany but in certain countries in the Middle East.
How else can one not 'Bash the Muslims' when the perpetrators in this case happen to be Muslims, had it had been Catholics, Jews, or homosexuals who stood accused, would that had also been 'bash the Catholics', 'Bash the Jews', or 'Bash the homosexuals'?
This poor girl's life is in danger even if ther Pakistani authorities set her free, given the chance the 'MOB' will track her down and set fire to her.
And yes I think we in the West are superior to those that can meter out this kind of justice with no feelings whatsoever, they are nothing more than 'savages'.
// And yes I think we in the West are superior to those that can meter out this kind of justice with no feelings whatsoever, they are nothing more than 'savages'. //
We in the West tend to do our indiscriminate killing from 35,000 feet and call it collateral damage. Killing more 10 year old girls than the baying mob do.
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We in the West tend to do our indiscriminate killing from 35,000 feet and call it collateral damage. Killing more 10 year old girls than the baying mob do.
http://
But from what i can see from this report she ISN'T going to face the death penalty . All the daily mail has done is state in the headline what the theoretical maximum penalty for blasphemy is (which is indeed death) , but a teenage girl with mental health problems is clearly not going to have that maximum penalty applied against her . It is interesting that the police say they detained her for her own protection .
Gromit
We in the West tend to do our indiscriminate killing from 35,000 feet and call it collateral damage. Killing more 10 year old girls than the baying mob do
That's being rather sensationalist Gromit, can't see any mention of 10 year old girls in your Guardian report,only Taliban terrorists, and that is got to be a good thing surely?
That is to anyone who lives in Britain and also enjoys being British.
/// The dead were local Taliban and fighters from the southern province of Punjab, said security officials and a tribal source. ///
And I do not know how you or anyone else can associate yourselves with the West (We in the West) and continue to churn out such anti-Western rhetoric.
We in the West tend to do our indiscriminate killing from 35,000 feet and call it collateral damage. Killing more 10 year old girls than the baying mob do
That's being rather sensationalist Gromit, can't see any mention of 10 year old girls in your Guardian report,only Taliban terrorists, and that is got to be a good thing surely?
That is to anyone who lives in Britain and also enjoys being British.
/// The dead were local Taliban and fighters from the southern province of Punjab, said security officials and a tribal source. ///
And I do not know how you or anyone else can associate yourselves with the West (We in the West) and continue to churn out such anti-Western rhetoric.
Look, whatever the fuss is all about, It's clearly nothing that can't be solved by a baying mob of ignorant yokels rampaging through the streets burning things and calling for little girls to be put to death.
That's their culture. We should respect it and let them deal with the problem in their own way.
That's their culture. We should respect it and let them deal with the problem in their own way.
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