Scouts to open it's doors to atheists.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242584/Scouts-pledge-drop-mention-God-promise-new-members-able-declare-atheists.html

Along with all other discipline it seems, who told that kid he could bend the peak of his uniform cap in such a way?

Soon they will be allowed to wear the peak either at the side or at the back.

What is the World coming to?

[jno]

absolutely, WR. Though I repeat my earlier point that loyalty to the queen is to her position as head of state, not head of the church. And there's nothing wrong with doing your duty to the head of state.

[naomi24]

WR, //Those of you who do not agree to the laws & standing principles SHOULD NOT BE HERE ( full bloody stop.)//

Gosh! So anyone who isn’t a Christian shouldn’t be here. I’m surprised jno agrees with that.

[Mick-Talbot]

// Our culture in the UK is a liberal secular democracy, underpinned and upheld by a belief in the law and the ideals of inclusivity and equality.Given this, there is no rational argument for the Scouting Association to insist their candidates and members swear an allegiance to a god or a monarch - an unnecessary, divisive and exclusive principle. //

It is my duty to point out to you all that England is a declared Christian country, HM the queen is head of the Christian church and all Christians believe in God, therefore I strongly object to yet another attempt to alter & change our long established moral principles. Those of you who do not agree to the laws & standing principles SHOULD NOT BE HERE ( full bloody stop.)

WR.




Wow....that has shot to No.1 in my AB absolutely stupid posts league.

[whiskeryron]

naomi with respect I suspect that if you went to settle & reside in a foreign country you MAY be allowed to follow your chosen religion but you would be expected ( probably by law or decree) to observe the basic rules of your new society.

WR.

[whiskeryron]

Mick- Talbot, thank you I am so grateful that you have elevated me to your No1 spot.

WR.

[naomi24]

WR, with respect, we aren't talking about people who have come here from a different society. If they adhere to a mainstream faith they are already welcomed into the scouts. We're talking about those, indigenous and perhaps otherwise, who are excluded because they DON’T adhere to a faith.

[Khandro]

LG; //All babies are born as atheists.// That is an amazing statement, particularly from one who likes to accuse others of speaking nonsense.

[LazyGun]

WR - And I have a duty to point out to you that although we have an establishment church, the Church of England, we are not a theocracy. We operate functionally as a secular democracy, where all religious views are tolerated. And all religious views will also include those people who have no religion.It is entirely legitimate and not at all nasty to question whether we should have an establishment Church at all, just as it perfectly valid to question those organisations that impose an oath of fealty to god or the monarchy.

To suggest that the country should only be peopled by christian monarchists is just a stupid comment.

And whilst we may be constitutionally a Monarchy, we are functionally a demoncracy - the Monarchy has no executive powers, thankfully, and exist as a figurehead only - with arguable value to the country.

It is entirely legitimate to question the value of a Monarchy in the 21st Century - should we really support a small number of people living a life of privilege, part-funded by the taxpayer, purely through inheritance?

Such a structure enshrines patronage, elitism and privilege - not something we should support in this day and age.

[naomi24]

Khandro, it's a factual statement.

[LazyGun]

@ Khandro - I cannot help it if your brain cannot comprehend the simple truth. Your personal incredulity speaks more to your intellect than it does to the facts. - no baby is born with an independantly derived religion. All babies are born as atheists.

[jackthehat]

In many towns and villages, the Scouts are the *only* organisations/groups offering boys any sort of alternative to congregating on street corners.

Any lad wishing to join (for all those reasons laid out by LG) should be encouraged to do so......and to miss the opportunity to help shape the young men of the future by a failure to grasp that times move on and Monarch/Religion don't matter as much to some as others would be a real shame.

[naomi24]

Jack, I agree - in fact I think it's decidedly unChristian to bar any young person.

[Khandro]

LG; you really do talk nonsense. Atheism; 'Disbelief in the existence of a deity.' So the new-born arrive already with a firm view?

[naomi24]

Khandro, disbelief assumes choice, but atheism equates to an absence of belief in a deity - and that's precisely the position of a new born baby.

[LazyGun]

Atheism is a lack of belief in deity, Khandro. Are you trying to suggest that babies are born with an innate religion? A baby born to a christian family is innately christian? A baby born to a muslim family is innately muslim?

Of course they are atheist when born! A religious belief is taught,it is not inherited!

Your lack of logic astounds me...

[Mick-Talbot]

Well put naomi.

[Kromovaracun]

"England is a declared Christian country, HM the queen is head of the Christian church and all Christians believe in God, therefore I strongly object to yet another attempt to alter & change our long established moral principles. Those of you who do not agree to the laws & standing principles SHOULD NOT BE HERE ( full bloody stop.) "

But I was born in the UK. I was raised in the UK. Who, exactly, do you think you are to say I shouldn't be in the country of my birth just because I disagree with some of my compatriots? Or just because I disagree with Christianity?

I notice that you rather tellingly didn't include 'democracy' or 'freedom' among English moral principles (and then had the gall to accuse someone else attempting to misrepresent English values).

Granted, they're both fairly modern in the form that we understand/use them, but they're undeniably an important part of contemporary English/British culture. And at their most basic they mean that you let people disagree with you, argue with you, challenge authority, and make up their own minds about things.

[Khandro]

LG & naomi; Oh no! //Atheism is a lack of belief in deity,// you are entirely wrong. Atheism is a DISBELIEF in a deity,- a fundamentally different thing, presupposing knowledge of the concept of God, and the rejection of that concept. Innocence is completely different, and may well be attributed to an infant on certain matters. I suggest you take more care in your choice of terminology.

[LazyGun]

@Khandro - Thats just a demagogic practice and you know it.

It suits your agenda to claim that the term atheism exclusively represents a positive choice - A choice to disbelieve in gods. That is certainly a component of Atheism -But at its simplest, it is just a lack of belief in gods.

And babies are born without an innate religion. What religion they end up is learned.

[LazyGun]

Oh, and I will take no lessons in terminology from you.