ChatterBank33 mins ago
Britain Faces Paying An Extra £770Million To Brussels This Year.
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Is this yet another reason why we should be allowed an EU in-out referendum now?
If Cameron thinks he can fool the electorate into putting him in power for a further five years, on the promise that he will grant us a referendum after they are back in power, he has another think coming.
Didn't he promise us one the last time?
If anyone is interested in getting out of 'Europe' then UKIP is their only choice, because if Labour gets in with or without the Lib/Dems support, we will never rid this yoke from around our shoulders.
Is this yet another reason why we should be allowed an EU in-out referendum now?
If Cameron thinks he can fool the electorate into putting him in power for a further five years, on the promise that he will grant us a referendum after they are back in power, he has another think coming.
Didn't he promise us one the last time?
If anyone is interested in getting out of 'Europe' then UKIP is their only choice, because if Labour gets in with or without the Lib/Dems support, we will never rid this yoke from around our shoulders.
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We face paying even more than that, AOG.
Yesterday George Osborne was comprehensively outvoted by our European “partners” (most of whom won’t pay a dime) and we’ll have to stump up £12bn for a banking protection levy which will be all but useless to us:
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The whole think is a farce, a giant wealth redistribution scheme to which we pay £50m a day and get half back on the condition that we spend it on what we’re told. A grand scheme and one which we need to get out of asap.
Yesterday George Osborne was comprehensively outvoted by our European “partners” (most of whom won’t pay a dime) and we’ll have to stump up £12bn for a banking protection levy which will be all but useless to us:
http://
The whole think is a farce, a giant wealth redistribution scheme to which we pay £50m a day and get half back on the condition that we spend it on what we’re told. A grand scheme and one which we need to get out of asap.
The major parties love the eu because for many of them its their ticket to riches once they fade from view in the mainstream over here
@NJ
If only it were a farce it would be funny, but this is the loss and ultimate destruction of our country, and worryingly theres plenty of people that think thats fine and dandy
@NJ
If only it were a farce it would be funny, but this is the loss and ultimate destruction of our country, and worryingly theres plenty of people that think thats fine and dandy
Yes sorry baz. It's far too serious to describe as a farce but to such a level has the entire thing descended that is the only word I can find for it.
As far as this latest wheeze is concerned no account has been taken of the fact that the UK already has the highest banking taxes in the EU and also already has a well funded scheme in place to cover the depositers of banks that hit trouble. Now of course we have to provide funds for all the nations in the EU who have not been so prudent.
As far as this latest wheeze is concerned no account has been taken of the fact that the UK already has the highest banking taxes in the EU and also already has a well funded scheme in place to cover the depositers of banks that hit trouble. Now of course we have to provide funds for all the nations in the EU who have not been so prudent.
AOG
Isn't the question a little more complicated than 'in or out'?
I know that was the question put to the electorate when we joined, but now isn't it all a bit more complicated?
For instance, 60% of Britain's trade is with the EU. Once we're outside the organisation, wouldn't we as a country (and public/private companies) have to renegotiate contracts with EU partners?
Also, are we sufficiently aware of EU legislation which positively benefits British workers:
Individual employment conditions (91/533/EEC)
Fixed term employment framework agreement
The part time workers framework agreement
Then - how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry?
Isn't the question a little more complicated than 'in or out'?
I know that was the question put to the electorate when we joined, but now isn't it all a bit more complicated?
For instance, 60% of Britain's trade is with the EU. Once we're outside the organisation, wouldn't we as a country (and public/private companies) have to renegotiate contracts with EU partners?
Also, are we sufficiently aware of EU legislation which positively benefits British workers:
Individual employment conditions (91/533/EEC)
Fixed term employment framework agreement
The part time workers framework agreement
Then - how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry?
One reason the right wing of the Tory party want us out of Europe is because they see the EU as restrictive of "business". That's certainly one of the main motives of UKIP, many of whose members believe in unregulated capitalism. I believe there's one member in particular calling themselves an "anarcho-capitalist"
I have no doubt that Cameron would hold a referendum on the EU were he to win the next election and were he to succeed in his plan to renogiate Britain's membership.
But the Bill being talked about to enshrine a referendum in law is just ridiculous nonsemse. For one thing it will never be allowed time to be debated by the Lib Dems and for another thing even if it was it would not get through Parliament. Cameron knows this perfectly well. It would appear to be a somewhat desperate measure to quell a revolt by his eurosceptic wing who, incidentally, unless they are stupid, must also realise that such a Bill has no chance of getting through.
I have no doubt that Cameron would hold a referendum on the EU were he to win the next election and were he to succeed in his plan to renogiate Britain's membership.
But the Bill being talked about to enshrine a referendum in law is just ridiculous nonsemse. For one thing it will never be allowed time to be debated by the Lib Dems and for another thing even if it was it would not get through Parliament. Cameron knows this perfectly well. It would appear to be a somewhat desperate measure to quell a revolt by his eurosceptic wing who, incidentally, unless they are stupid, must also realise that such a Bill has no chance of getting through.
The question is, SP, whether the EU really has the moral authority to legislate on such things when it was established as a trading bloc.
I must say, I am by no means decided on the EU but I do agree with a post NJ made in a previous thread - there needs to be a proper debate about whether the massive changes since we joined are still benefiting us as members. There also needs to be some kind of debate about the alternatives - e.g. what would happen if we instead gravitated towards the EFTA and NAFTA.
I must say, I am by no means decided on the EU but I do agree with a post NJ made in a previous thread - there needs to be a proper debate about whether the massive changes since we joined are still benefiting us as members. There also needs to be some kind of debate about the alternatives - e.g. what would happen if we instead gravitated towards the EFTA and NAFTA.
sp1814
/// For instance, 60% of Britain's trade is with the EU. Once we're outside the organisation, wouldn't we as a country (and public/private companies) have to renegotiate contracts with EU partners? ///
We might, but that is not saying that they will be any less favourable, Renault will still want to sell their cars here, Bosh their electrical goods etc.etc.
/// Also, are we sufficiently aware of EU legislation which positively benefits British workers: ///
And also disadvantages them.
/// Individual employment conditions (91/533/EEC)
Fixed term employment framework agreement
The part time workers framework agreement ///
And cannot we negotiate our own agreements without any interference from Brussels?
/// Then - how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry? ///
Arguments against the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)
1/ Resources are best allocated through a free market: CAP makes food more expensive in the EU than it need be.
2/ The CAP increases poverty in poor countries by competing unfairly with local farmers.
3/ The CAP demands far too high a budgetary contribution to support only a small minority of EU businesses.
4/ Processing farmers' CAP payments is expensive (in 2009, the average cost of processing an SFP claim in the UK was £742, even for payouts as small as £5).
Don't forget the fisheries also, when we have to dump fish back dead in the sea, and a large proportion of our fishermen had to sell their boats.
/// For instance, 60% of Britain's trade is with the EU. Once we're outside the organisation, wouldn't we as a country (and public/private companies) have to renegotiate contracts with EU partners? ///
We might, but that is not saying that they will be any less favourable, Renault will still want to sell their cars here, Bosh their electrical goods etc.etc.
/// Also, are we sufficiently aware of EU legislation which positively benefits British workers: ///
And also disadvantages them.
/// Individual employment conditions (91/533/EEC)
Fixed term employment framework agreement
The part time workers framework agreement ///
And cannot we negotiate our own agreements without any interference from Brussels?
/// Then - how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry? ///
Arguments against the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)
1/ Resources are best allocated through a free market: CAP makes food more expensive in the EU than it need be.
2/ The CAP increases poverty in poor countries by competing unfairly with local farmers.
3/ The CAP demands far too high a budgetary contribution to support only a small minority of EU businesses.
4/ Processing farmers' CAP payments is expensive (in 2009, the average cost of processing an SFP claim in the UK was £742, even for payouts as small as £5).
Don't forget the fisheries also, when we have to dump fish back dead in the sea, and a large proportion of our fishermen had to sell their boats.
/// 82% of people would like a referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union. ///
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“I know that was the question put to the electorate when we joined,…”
No it was not, sp. The electorate was not consulted before the UK joined what was the Common Market in January 1973. It was asked in 1975 whether it wanted to continue that membership, to which they replied “yes“ by two to one. Needless to say the “Common Market” of forty years ago is not quite the same thing as the EU is today.
“how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry”
I think AOG has made most of the important points but it is also important to remember that the CAP is principally and primarily concerned with providing huge financial subsidies to inefficient French farmers and there are no plans for that to change.
I'm afraid the questions is as simple as "in or out". There is sufficient dissatisfaction with the current situation across the electorate for the matter to be put to the test. Despite Mr Cameron's rhetoric he has no chance (which he well knows) of any meaningful renegotiation of our terms of membership either now or in the foreseeable future and it is dishonest for him to suggest that he has.
Incredible as it may seem nations do manage to prosper outside the EU and the notion that we shall suddenly disappear down the kharzi into obscurity is fatuous to say the least. But it is an position that the Europhiles are more than happy to maintain.
No it was not, sp. The electorate was not consulted before the UK joined what was the Common Market in January 1973. It was asked in 1975 whether it wanted to continue that membership, to which they replied “yes“ by two to one. Needless to say the “Common Market” of forty years ago is not quite the same thing as the EU is today.
“how will the Common Agricultural Policy changes be applied to our farming industry”
I think AOG has made most of the important points but it is also important to remember that the CAP is principally and primarily concerned with providing huge financial subsidies to inefficient French farmers and there are no plans for that to change.
I'm afraid the questions is as simple as "in or out". There is sufficient dissatisfaction with the current situation across the electorate for the matter to be put to the test. Despite Mr Cameron's rhetoric he has no chance (which he well knows) of any meaningful renegotiation of our terms of membership either now or in the foreseeable future and it is dishonest for him to suggest that he has.
Incredible as it may seem nations do manage to prosper outside the EU and the notion that we shall suddenly disappear down the kharzi into obscurity is fatuous to say the least. But it is an position that the Europhiles are more than happy to maintain.
NJ
"Needless to say the “Common Market” of forty years ago is not quite the same thing as the EU is today"
Yes - that's the point I was trying to make when I said it was all so much more complicated now.
The worry I have is that the whole EU narrative has been directed by the Eurosceptics that it's possible that the average man or woman in the street will only think about Abu Hamza and EU subsidies which isn't really an informed process.
I know that sounds patronising, but I include myself in that group. I have no idea whether we'd be better off outside the EU.
And because I'm not hugely for or against our membership, I would vote to stay in.
"Needless to say the “Common Market” of forty years ago is not quite the same thing as the EU is today"
Yes - that's the point I was trying to make when I said it was all so much more complicated now.
The worry I have is that the whole EU narrative has been directed by the Eurosceptics that it's possible that the average man or woman in the street will only think about Abu Hamza and EU subsidies which isn't really an informed process.
I know that sounds patronising, but I include myself in that group. I have no idea whether we'd be better off outside the EU.
And because I'm not hugely for or against our membership, I would vote to stay in.
The trading issue comes up in this but what is not mentioned is that the UK the second largest market in the EU and those that sell to us don't care about politics they care about sales. We would have a very strong world trading position and would maintain our links with EU business. EUphiles love to to spread isolation hysteria but in reality businesses would bypass politics unless the EU wants to turn it into a real EUSSR. Baz makes a very good point here, politicians love the EU because it's a trough for them to snout into when their UK politics career is over. Then there's the CAP, no longer should we subsidise French farmers, let them fill Paris with tractors.
"Baz makes a very good point here, politicians love the EU because it's a trough for them to snout into when their UK politics career is over."
A particularly daft point, in my opinion, regardless of all comparatively sensible reasons. The same old lazy "politicians are all in it for themselves" nonsense. Also, I don't get the argument about "political", nor the CAP either, which seems a bit old-fashioned. Don't a lot of British farmers like this now? I don't know.
Even the "it's not what we voted for" argument, which I think is the strongest argument for a referendum, has its snags.
A particularly daft point, in my opinion, regardless of all comparatively sensible reasons. The same old lazy "politicians are all in it for themselves" nonsense. Also, I don't get the argument about "political", nor the CAP either, which seems a bit old-fashioned. Don't a lot of British farmers like this now? I don't know.
Even the "it's not what we voted for" argument, which I think is the strongest argument for a referendum, has its snags.
"Needless to say the “Common Market” of forty years ago is not quite the same thing as the EU is today.
"
but the ulterior motives and final end game then as now has not changed one little bit: being the total subjugation destruction and control of sovreign nation states to form the eussr empire.
The centres of power of all these nation states being emasculated and taken over and run from brussells.
to turn all these nations into one homogenous isotropic people land for the benefit of brussells
today is just a few more steps along the way until the original political plan is completed,in full knowledge that it could never be accomplished overnight and never be accomplished if the truth of its motives were admitted to.
with each year they gain that little bit more control and the longer it goes on the more chance they have of succeeding with their plans, because they know the deeper in we are the harder it will be to get out.
Once they realise we are serious about getting out then they will start a massive charm offensive funded in part by our money we pay in.
They will stop at nothing to stop their experiment failing as witnessed by the recent bailouts, whatever it costs or takes they will do it, get a vote they dont like, then keep on voting until the vote is favourable...sound familiar ?
they will not let their political dreams and ideology for a superstate turn to ashes.
"
but the ulterior motives and final end game then as now has not changed one little bit: being the total subjugation destruction and control of sovreign nation states to form the eussr empire.
The centres of power of all these nation states being emasculated and taken over and run from brussells.
to turn all these nations into one homogenous isotropic people land for the benefit of brussells
today is just a few more steps along the way until the original political plan is completed,in full knowledge that it could never be accomplished overnight and never be accomplished if the truth of its motives were admitted to.
with each year they gain that little bit more control and the longer it goes on the more chance they have of succeeding with their plans, because they know the deeper in we are the harder it will be to get out.
Once they realise we are serious about getting out then they will start a massive charm offensive funded in part by our money we pay in.
They will stop at nothing to stop their experiment failing as witnessed by the recent bailouts, whatever it costs or takes they will do it, get a vote they dont like, then keep on voting until the vote is favourable...sound familiar ?
they will not let their political dreams and ideology for a superstate turn to ashes.
“…but the ulterior motives and final end game then as now has not changed “
Very true, baz. But the difference now is that the genie has been out of the bottle for some time. In 1972, and to a greater extent in 1975 the electorate was duped into believing that they were involved in a simple trading bloc. I know because to my eternal shame I voted “yes” in 1975. I can well recall all the propaganda put about at the time and the many reassurances that we were not jeopardising our sovereignty. You are absolutely correct as well when you say that had these original objectives been known in the 1970s the situation we are in today would never have arisen. At that time the electorate was naïve and foolishly believed that politicians would act in their best interests. By now many of us have learned the folly of our ways and the damage has been done.
Very true, baz. But the difference now is that the genie has been out of the bottle for some time. In 1972, and to a greater extent in 1975 the electorate was duped into believing that they were involved in a simple trading bloc. I know because to my eternal shame I voted “yes” in 1975. I can well recall all the propaganda put about at the time and the many reassurances that we were not jeopardising our sovereignty. You are absolutely correct as well when you say that had these original objectives been known in the 1970s the situation we are in today would never have arisen. At that time the electorate was naïve and foolishly believed that politicians would act in their best interests. By now many of us have learned the folly of our ways and the damage has been done.
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