Must Unveil In Court?

[mushroom25]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10261550/Muslim-woman-must-remove-burka-in-court-judge-insists.html

a sound legal principle? Or is the learned judge just exposing his prejudices?

[chrisgel]

"O Prophet, enjoin your wives and your daughters and the believing women, to draw a part of their outer coverings around them. It is likelier that they will be recognised and not molested. Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful."

There are many translations, all by men and all absolving men from taking responsibility for their actions.
It seems that Muslim men will not take responsibility for their own actions with regards to females and instead put the onus on women to not be seen.

[naomi24]

hc, //I interpret 'cloak' as a sleeveless coat, a body covering, not a veil.//

That's not what's implied here - and apart from that Muslim women are obliged to cover their arms, so a sleeveless garment would not be acceptable.


".....screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way"

[hc4361]

naomi, a cloak does cover the arms. It doesn't have sleeves like a coat but 'slots' to put hands through when necessary.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_14?url=search-alias%3Dcomputers&field-keywords=fine%20tipped%20stylus&sprefix=fine+tipped+st%2Caps%2C138

[hc4361]

That bit about the eyes or one eye is an added extra to the original.

[naomi24]

hc, I know what you mean, but if Muslim women wore the kind of sleeveless 'cloak' that you're talking about, they would wear something under it that covers their arms.

[naomi24]

hc, there are various interpretations and Muslims take from them what they will.

[FredPuli43]

Never mind what is implied. What does the document actually say?

[naomi24]

Fred, I posted this on the other page. This is what this document actually says.

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:59

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[hc4361]

Shohreh Aghdashloo is a hugely successful Iranian born Muslim actress. She has been nominated for an Oscar, done nude shoots, played a Jew in a film about Mary, she is very well educated.

Needless to say, she doesn't wear the veil, at times she has worn nothing at all, but she is still a Muslim woman.

[mikey4444]

It is completely irrelevant what the Qur'an says. This is Britain in the 21st century, not medieval Arabia. The woman is the defendant in a serious court trial, and as the Judge has said, justice is paramount in these situations.

[hc4361]

Another interpretation of that quote:
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
http://quran.com/33/59

No mention of eyes to see the way.

And another
(33:59) O Prophet, enjoin your wives and your daughters and the believing women, to draw a part of their outer coverings around them.110 It is likelier that they will be recognised and not molested.111 Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.112
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=33&verse=59&to=68

[naomi24]

hc, //but she is still a Muslim woman.//

In some circles that would be debateable.

Mikey, someone said her veil is not obligatory - just saying that there are reasons for some Muslims to justify it. Other than that, I agree with you.

[FredPuli43]

Yes, Naomi, but it's your i.e in parantheses, that I am asking about. The words used , in their normal and natural meaning, do not bear your translation in brackets. They are plain enough.

[naomi24]

hc, I know. That's why some wear it and some don't. Depends which version they choose.

[hc4361]

The Iranian Americans love her. She's not the only Muslim actress or intellectual or tv presenter or indeed housewife and mother not to wear the veil.

[naomi24]

Fred, it's not my 'ie'. It's an English translation of the original text and that's what's there. I haven't tampered with it.

[chrisgel]

Which version their husband chooses surely?

[mikey4444]

My point is that it doesn't matter a monkeys if the wearing of a veil is compulsory or not, it not appropriate in a court of law. Its not just identity that is an issue here. How is the jury and the Judge supposed to tell if this person is telling the truth or not, when all that they are able to observe is a small slit in some black cloth, showing the eyes ?

Storm in a teacup if you ask me. She should be told to show her whole face or face a charge of contempt of court.

[hc4361]

Fred, the bits in brackets in Naomi's quotes are add ons to the original, possibly because translation to the English is difficult, possibly because that what some Muslim scholars want it to say.

Just as some scholars of the Bible say the word camel has been interpreted and should be 'rope' in the famous Bible passage about camels passing through the eye of a needle.

It is not only translating between languages but between centuries. Something called a road in Biblical times would be a footpath today as a road is a tarmacked surface for cars to drive along.

[bazwillrun]

"I think she is the accused."

shes charged with witnessess intimidation

Shes just another piece garbage that has no intention of integrating in our country and using her religion as an excuse to try and pull a stroke on our system
Get her and her sort out of our country if they dont like it, no problem , wont be missed...far from it