Must Unveil In Court?

[mushroom25]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10261550/Muslim-woman-must-remove-burka-in-court-judge-insists.html

a sound legal principle? Or is the learned judge just exposing his prejudices?

[chrisgel]

A large part of interaction is non verbal. Facial expressions, gestures, body posture etc. all form part of the overall picture when talking to or observing people.
It should therefore be patently obvious then that any covering of the face by a person giving evidence in a court would hamper the observers chances of forming an assessment of that persons validity and truthfulness.
The same holds true in everyday interactions. The burkha does offend me representing, as it does, the oppression of women but it also forms a barrier to understanding and integration.
To me it is a statement of defiance and arrogance. It says "I do not want to talk to you and I don't want you to talk to me."

[237SJ]

"I don`t like people walking around with their faces covered" is the same as my mother saying (in the early 70s) "I don`t like women walking around with their legs/midriffs showing" Just because you don`t like it, that doesn`t mean that is not acceptable to some people. It`s just not acceptable to you.

[hc4361]

Fred, when I pass a stranger in the street we may make eye contact and exchange 'mornings', 'lovely day' or other pleasantry that helps oil the wheels of the daily grind. We may bond for a moment over a moan about the rain but we connect, albeit briefly. This is normal interaction and for some people it may be the only social interaction they get all day - it is a boost to the spirit, a feeling of camaraderie and a sign that one has been acknowledged as a fellow person.
It may not be much but it may be a whole big deal.

If I pass a woman in a burka there is no eye contact as I cannot see her eyes. I have never yet passed a woman in a burka who acknowledged me in any way, even though I smile or nod. I do feel able to say 'lovely morning' as her attire is telling me - I do not converse with men I don't know.
I have discussed this with my wife this evening and she feels the same way, except she gets the message that woman in the burka does not want to know or acknowledge her.
This is very sad and if there is a burka wearing woman on AB I would love to hear her views on a strange man speaking to her in passing.

My burka wearing acquaintance is always with her husband and he does all the talking when we meet.

[237SJ]

hc - the veil isn`t a burkha.

[237SJ]

*burka*

[hc4361]

237SJ. You are not comparing like with like. Short skirts cannot equate in any way with a hidden face.
Disapproval of current fashion is de rigueur amongst older people.
I would expect any biker to remove his helmet when talking to me, anybody wearing dark glasses to remove them, anyone wearing a bandana covering half the face to take it off. It may be fashion but it is not conductive to interaction.

Anyone wearing a ski mask in the middle of Manchester I'd run a mile from.

[hc4361]

The veil is a facial covering as is a burka. Don't split hairs.

[chrisgel]

Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension?
Where have I said that wearing a burkha is unacceptable? It quite plainly is acceptable otherwise there would be a law against it.

This woman should not be allowed to wear any covering to her face while giving evidence. I think the term is "abuse of process" but I'm sure I will be corrected on that if I'm wrong.
The woman has already had photographs taken of her by the police so I don't see what her problem is.

[hc4361]

I agree with you, chrisgel.

There is a time and place for everything and court is a time for due process.

[237SJ]

hc - the burka covers the whole body from head to toe. A veil covers the face but leave the eyes uncovered. Maybe you should Google it.

[237SJ]

And on that note, I`m off to bed and I can`t be bothered to argue. Night night.

[Mattk]

Surely she can just uncover her face to a female official and then take the stand?
That way everyone is happy.

[Peter Pedant]

hc if they are wearing a burka, then they have bought into the bit where they dont speak to men in the street.

sudduv like saying to a nun do you fancy a quick one
and then wondering why she is screaming rape !

[douglas9401]

I guess if I was up before the beak wearing a ski mask or high collar and was told to remove either and refused I'd be in contempt.
What's wrong with this picture?
Just another push at the envelope. Get whatever concession you can, whenever you can.

[Peter Pedant]

I agree with the bit - you have to able to see them

with all the up-down be-up-standing all-rise fol-de-rol,
you can see if people are lying or not

seen it.


hence no burka

anyway I still think she is a defendant in a criminal suit which makes this I-am-devoit-Muslim bit a little over-cooked

[hc4361]

237 - I really do know what a burka, hijab, niqab is, thank you. I used 'veil' as a cover all to mean burka and niqab as they both cover the face. I also know what an al-amira and shayla are. Do I get points?

Matt, you obviously haven't read the whole thread. It is right and proper that the judge, judge and barristers can see a person's face when they give evidence as non-verbal communication is often more revealing than the spoken word.

Would you be happy to have a jury in burkas?

[chrisgel]

Mattk - The point here I think is not one of identification but of the judge and jury (if there is one) being able to see her re-actions when she is being questioned etc.

[hc4361]

Peter, I can see a nun's face and would happily say 'morning' to her.
I will say 'morning' or 'afternoon' to anyone I pass.

[Mattk]

Not sure that's true...

"Judge Peter Murphy said he would not allow the 21-year-old defendant to stand trial in the veil, which only revealed her eyes, because her identity had not been confirmed."

It seems identity confirmation is what is required but must confess I haven't followed this too closely.

[chrisgel]

Mattk - My apologies, I have reread the article and you are, of course, correct. I based my comment on earlier postings in this thread.